CryptoBasic Podcast

Your source for all Cryptocurrency information, made for the novice investor. 

Is everything in the world needs to be perfect?

Anthony:

No, of course it won't be. And so we can't have it be completely immutable by the thing in the world that needs toe stay the same is that you shouldn't be able to make rules that nullify old rules and that's really where in mutability within the context of our blockchain comes up hello, everybody, and welcome to this edition of the crypto basic podcast.

Anthony:

My name is karen baroque and i'm very excited here to have a very special guest. Anthony was sorry. The director of the theory, um cooperative in the u s how are you doing to anthony?

Karim:

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

Anthony:

If you're in classic cooperative with their classic bancor e t c c that's, right, that's, right.

Karim:

So before we get started, anthony, the first question that we like to ask is, why don't you give us a brief introduction of who you are?

Anthony:

And if you have one, what was your?

Karim:

Ah ha moment that made you get involved in the cryptocurrency space?

Anthony:

Okay, s o, i've bean involved in cryptocurrencies for awhile.

Karim:

Now. The first thing that got me involved in them isn't anything special. Like a lot of people, i, ah, i heard about bitcoin. I think probably i first heard about it in twenty thirteen and then saw the price go up drastically, and i was like, okay, too late. And then after it crashed in early twenty fourteen, i started kind of looking at crypto currencies, and i just started buying. Ah, what you call shit koi it's.

Anthony:

So i bought.

Karim:

Some they i didn't do well i should've just kept the bitcoin and and then after that though that was my first introduction to it i started reading a lot more about it started getting a lot more interested in it and then start taking it more seriously so as faras my general qualifications go i'ii i've been involved with ethereum since about six months after the crowd sale i wasn't involved in any official capacity i was just a big fan i started really understanding the tech and where this blockchain stuff was potentially going and for my general backgrounds i usedto work in market research i still do very occasional working it but not not too much now i really worked full time on if you're in classic at the dc cooperative and i also program sometimes so i consider myself an okay toe good ish programmer but not somebody amazing like i could never program something like a bitcoin but i feel ah i get a good feel for what the crypto currency world is like both on the technical side and on the personal side and i think there's a lot of one of one of the big things i find with crypto currencies is there tends to be a lot of issues where you have these very technical people and they're in charge of everything and then you have non technical people who also want to participate and there tends to be a lot of clashing there. So i liked trying play in between those and that's kind of what works into the d c cooperative, because we do a lot more of the community management. Ah, lot more of making sure that the lights are on and some operational things as well. So like to the liaison between those different groups that are all interested in cryptocurrency but don't necessarily speak the same language.

Anthony:

Yeah, that's really interesting. And it is, you know, cryptocurrencies are a sector that seems to cover a lot of different spaces. Like you said, it's not just a coding, but from governance, marketing, community, everything so, yeah, exactly.

Karim:

So i think, as i mentioned to you, we cover a lot of the basics during our wanna one episode on ethereum classic and obviously we had to spend a significant amount covering the dow hacked the ensuing philosophical differences that led to the ethereum fork.

Anthony:

So our audience is a general idea, but i wanted you to give a chance to explain why people like yourself felt that in mutability was such an important character is to maintain.

Karim:

So i don't think it's just me. I think in a lot of cryptocurrencies we see this where people think it's important to maintain and bitcoin, for example, it's always been maintained.

Anthony:

They've never reverse the transaction.

Karim:

They have updated their network to fix exploits and issues, and that's ah, completely different thing, and it makes sense, there's, a debate about mutability, and i think it almost sometimes gets away from what the actual debate is. The real debate isn't so much.

Anthony:

Does everything in the world need to be immutable?

Karim:

No, of course not. Does everything in the world needs to be perfect. No, of course it won't be, and so we can't have it be completely immutable.

Anthony:

But the thing in the world that needs toe stay the same is that you shouldn't be able to make rules that nullify old rules and that's really where in mutability within the context of our blockchain comes up in that if you make a rule and it turns out to be a bad rule then you play a new game and you give everybody notice and you don't ever make a rule though that un does an old rule because that's not fair that the rules were laid out and so if we're going toe just undo a previous rule well then anybody who made its decision back then back when that rule was in effect their decision now doesn't matter because nobody's playing by the rules that everybody had agreed teo i think it's a really interesting idea toe to be able to stick to that because ultimately we will be able to stick to that we just have to grow more black shin is very small so to start from the outset to really give up on principles that early just seems very misguided to me and it seems like it's going toe lead down the wrong path and you even see that now people say oh the dow hack was a one time thing it's not a one time thing because now there's about three or four attempts to return the parody funds i love parody i think the people on it are brilliant i think the code is great, i know multiple people who work on it but and i'm very, very sorry to see that this it happens but at the same time the greater common good is always better off without this reversing of transactions or basically just changing rules yeah, so it's almost like the primordial rule is understanding that the rules we agree upon are going to maintain that way and they're not going to be changed upon you halfway through the game yeah that's the only way this thing works yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense alright, so more specifically on e t c so during our one on one i kind of referred to you guys as the anti tron from the perspective that you guys seem to be completely not interested in height but all i also stumbled upon a description that said e tc likes to be more conservative in contrast to what they called the theory ums move fast and break things approach so i wanted to ask you how fair is that characterization and why do you guys take that approach?

Karim:

I love that characterization, i'm very anti tron i'm i'm very rarely anti blah chains in general i'm even a theory um like if they want to go down that route and try different ideas, i think that's great, but ah, you know i'd agree with that one hundred percent one of the one of the changes that you guys made after e tc split that i was wondering if you could give us some insight on was thie monetary policy was essentially changed from what was like your theory omise inflationary model to something that was closer to bitcoin?

Anthony:

What was d thought process behind that the thought process there was just that we already exist in a world where we have inflationary currencies and if you need inflation on a blockchain, you could always do it any way you can make a token that's inflationary.

Karim:

So we felt that just in general, having a known coin supply is kind of better for everybody involved because you know how many will exist, you know, buy when, how they'll exist and you're setting out this rule that nobody is going to ah, we're defining ahead of time what it is rather than defining at some later point in time.

Anthony:

So in a very early stage in blockchain, we've set out and said that there is this coin lim and this is what it is basically ok, yeah, that makes sense.

Karim:

All right, so one of the other aspects that i didn't really get a chance to get into us much, and to be honest, it is because i didn't understand it, but it's clearly a important part of the project tell us about the emerald project so emerald projects currently you can see an example of it in emeralds, wallet, which is a dust top wallet.

Anthony:

I think they're going to do a mobile app later this year.

Karim:

But it's just a very nice, sleek little wallet and it's built upon their emerald s t k, which is still obviously in development.

Anthony:

But what that is it's designed to essentially make working with the e d c block chain a lot easier.

Karim:

So right now, if your developer on any blockchain, you mostly have to roll your own stuff.

Anthony:

So ah, a modern day programmer for anybody who does in program really comes to the table and expect there to be a lot of tools toe so work with so it's, kind of like if you're a carpenter are you may have, like fifty different hammers because you have ah different hammer free each and every little job you're doing.

Karim:

But when you come to block chain right now and your carpets are on blockchain, for example, ah, terrible analogy, you know you.

Anthony:

Essentially you you have maybe there's maybe there's one or two hammers that exist and then if you need any of the other forty eight hammers you have to go and make them yourself and then you have and then you have another carpenter he he goes and he has to do the same thing and everybody is kind of making the same hammers to do that to solve their problems but they don't really need to what instead should be is you know, you go when you get your toolkit of fifty homers that is completely free and open source and you just downloaded and you go oh okay, well, i have everything that i need to work with and so right now programmers on block chains in general don't have everything they need to work with and that's what emerald project is going to accomplish so this would not only make the life of programmers easier, but it would also incentivize more programmers outside of blockchain to come into the space yeah, exactly it makes your life easier incentivizes more more people to come in and then what it effects for the users is you end up getting a lot nicer better products in the end so when you need a when you want some pretty little interface thing and you don't want to think about anything, developers will have been unable to more easily create those types of things okay, fantastic.

Karim:

Yeah.

Anthony:

All right, so i was reading one of your block post and you made a claim that made me initially sceptical andi was verifiable, so i was going to test you on it.

Karim:

You said, quote, the emerald wallet took me literally one minute to install and immediately start using e t c so i went to test you on that it wasn't one minute it was like twenty three seconds.

Anthony:

That was very impressive.

Karim:

Yeah, but all joking, around aside, this is kind of a very small question, but again, we're not we're not developers.

Anthony:

So when i installed the wallet, i noticed that it gave me two options to either run awful note that had the entire block chain or get started right away by running a line client, and it said that it was slightly less secure.

Karim:

And now it's, just curious, like, what does that mean from a user perspective when they see that?

Anthony:

What, in what way are they more exposed?

Karim:

Or what additional risk are they taking by not running a full note?

Anthony:

So when you're not running a full note, you're not verifying that everything on the block chain is in order and you're not verifying that your transaction has made it to the blockchain, so if you send it out to ah remote noda not full node, you essentially, just have to trust that they go on broadcasted and dawn do anything but the amount of risk is actually very small.

Karim:

So for example, if you're using a remote node, that remote note is never going to be able to actually access your funds, they're not going to be able to do much the only two things that they could potentially do and it's very unlikely and very easily verifiable by regular user is they could either choose not to broadcast your transaction or they could lie to you and say, you have more money or less money than you actually dio, but i use light notes all the time, and if i broadcast the transaction, i just goto a block explorer and i type in the might the address, and i make sure that it's been broadcast the network, so i don't i don't really see it as much less secure, but some people do and it's just nice that that option's there, but i pretty much always used like lines unless i'm doing actual development for for myself.

Anthony:

So from the use of perspective, the it's not really risk in the sense that they normally see it it's more like for highly specialized attacks and you know things where they're trying to spook the network, and even then you could still verify it through a simple block explorer yeah, basically, it's, a very small amount of lying that they could do.

Karim:

And, yeah, you could always use the block exporter.

Anthony:

Verify, so okay, thank you for that answer.

Karim:

All right, so you guys have a particular implementation of the theory in virtual machine, which is called sputnik virtual machine.

Anthony:

Tell us a little bit about why was the bell up and what sets it apart, okay?

Karim:

So i'm also going to preface this i am on the theory in classic cooperative the developers are on e tc dev i'll speak to their projects to the best of my ability which i probably should have said earlier but for sputnik v m it's essentially when you want to run code on the theorem classic blockchain you need to actually go and connect to the block ching but there's occasions where you ah programmer may have made code that they don't want to run necessarily on the block and they want to run it somewhere else they want to run a privately and they don't currently really have that option to do that easily so what sputnik v m does is it's a very highly efficient implementation of the tv um and it lets people run e v m code wherever they want friends user that doesn't matter so much ah but it's another one of those tools where for a programmer if you had like maybe you wanted to run if you maybe you wanted to connect a smart watch or something to the blockchain right now that's really hard to do and the notes that talked to the blockchain and the whole network is very computation lee intensive so you may not be able to fully accomplish that and do it the same way you could from your computer but you could use something like like sputnik v m that has very low requirements and do some of the stuff on the smart watch and do other stuff still on the block chain or a different remote node so it's kind of hard to explain to people who are non developers but eight what it is sent chilly does if you're a non developer is it enables mohr devices and more people to be able to use the ethereum classic blockchain and it'll do that by giving developers tools too get the ethereum classic blockchain interacting with two different capacities with these other devices like you're smart watch or like aah television or the those types of things?

Anthony:

So would it be fair to say that this is, uh, highly targeted for a future of io ti devices?

Karim:

Yeah it's for i o t but i like to describe it in ways but beyond loyalty cause i lt always sounds like this very nebulous thing right and it's a cat word that gets used a lot in the space it's like cloud, right?

Anthony:

Right, right, right.

Karim:

Another thing that i had a few questions about actually callisto now i understand callisto is an independent watching but it's sort of an auxiliary blotch ing to the ethereum network or environment correct or ecosystem?

Anthony:

Maybe so i guess the first question i have was callisto specifically designed in order to provide that full time team of smart contract auditors is that the main purpose of callisto so that i could answer less because i'm because, ah, theorem commonwealth has been dedicating most of their time to callisto and not at the arm classic.

Karim:

The way i understand it is they wanted callisto in order to just have more flexibility to make changes.

Anthony:

The theorem classic is a very conservative blockchain and i think that's perfectly fine, but for close, so they wanted to have a blockchain where they could just make changes quickly and make updates and try out new things.

Karim:

One of those things, i guess, is the contract's auditing, but i don't really do too much with callisto and it's, not callisto, is not interfere in plastic project callisto, a's and a theorem commonwealth project, a theorem commonwealth just happens to make software for both block chains.

Anthony:

Okay, so it's, really just since there's a lot of confusion there to do tow some of the start of callisto.

Karim:

Ah, i just want to be clear that where were completely separate block chains, and we don't really interact too much.

Anthony:

Okay, fair enough.

Karim:

Fair enough.

Anthony:

Um, all right.

Karim:

So another thing you mentioned when your block post that i found very interesting.

Anthony:

You mentioned what, first of all, tell us a little bit about thie e theory, um, classic side chains, but i also wanted to ask you, one of things you mentioned is that the transactions would be free and again, we're not developers, but wouldn't that make it susceptible to distributed denial of service attacks and or how do you guys protect against that?

Karim:

Well, no, it wouldn't.

Anthony:

So cy chains are essentially just running another blockchain and not having to ah, but not having to share with everybody.

Karim:

So for a lot of side chains, the way you would get your free transactions is you would have something like proof of authority.

Anthony:

Where on ly certain people are allowed to broadcast transactions on your block chain.

Karim:

And then you can basically make sure that you know if and if anybody spams, eh?

Anthony:

One.

Karim:

The hopefully, the people you're working with our people who are going to do that to begin with.

Anthony:

But to then you can control and and say, oh, you can't throw cash transactions on this watching anymore.

Karim:

And really, the reason for side chains is that for a lot of stuff, doesn't need to be on a public blockchain.

Anthony:

Public block chains have limits.

Karim:

They all have.

Anthony:

I mean, there are blocked chains out there.

Karim:

They will tell you they have no limits, ah, and there either lying or not, truly decentralized or immutable.

Anthony:

And so those things are very important.

Karim:

But essentially, side chains give you the ability to run your own private or semi public, or even private, even.

Anthony:

Permissions but public things where maybe the world's khun see it but not everybody can interact with it or maybe somebody can use it privately and it could just record some data publicly to the blockchain whatever it needs tio so again, it's just about giving that flexibility to different developers of different businesses with different use cases to connect to the ethereum classic blockchain and to do it in a way that is amenable tow their interests.

Karim:

So there are a lot of things where you can't do it on a public blockchain one of the things that often i find funny is when somebody's like we're gonna put medical data on the block chain or we're going to use blockchain for medical stuff like no, we have there's a lot of laws in a lot of different countries protecting medical data public blockchain where anybody can read it is the absolutely worst place to put it so in some cases you can't have public data like i you may have the password and you may store it encrypted and you still don't want it being out there where anybody could start trying to guess what your password is even if it's encrypted so there's things like that where you want a private blockchain to protect data that you don't want the entire world to see and that's an entirely common need of business is that we're hoping to be able to fulfill okay, so i was going to ask you this later.

Anthony:

But you hinted at it a little bit.

Karim:

When you mentioned that.

Anthony:

Maybe some of the projects that are claiming that they can have infinite scale ability are in truly decentralized.

Karim:

I was surprised.

Anthony:

E t c is really going after a lot of decentralization, and not even just within the notes themselves. But even like the fact that the different social media channels are operated by different groups, and that there's different development teams talk a little bit about that. How it's split up the purpose of it.

Karim:

Okay, so yeah we keep a very distributed ecosystem so essentially what that means and i posted this on twitter the other day because somebody had asked my permission to start a e tc based local twitter account i basically said you i can feel frieda yes for like my help but you can ask for my permission because i can't give you permission so essentially the idea though behind having a distributed ecosystem is we're in a very centralized world like their things are centralized there's a hierarchy to nearly everything and then we have blockchain that tries to be the complete antithesis of that so for example, for owning a subreddit like you mentioned or owning a discord or a website those types of things each and every one of those ultimately there's going to be one person who actually has the log in who has the ultimate final say over and so we decided that if we're goingto have a dissension allies system then we want to distribute the people who have some influence over that system as much as possible so it requires if you want to do something it just requires a lot more agreement amongst the community in order to actually get it done rather than being able to just kind of dictate from on high and say that oh this is what we're doing or all the solutions in general tend ta then come from a on on high too so even if there, even if there's multiple different solutions, you'll notice they all come from that same, you know, central, centralized group.

Anthony:

And so we really wanted to avoid that because we think that especially in this very young stage, having that centralized group managing a decentralized platform is going to actually make that decentralized platform a lot more centralized because a lot of people either are you able to participate to the level they want to or they i don't understand it anyway, so they have no safety stops.

Karim:

They basically just have to trust this one group, and we just want to avoid all of that.

Anthony:

Yeah, i have to tell you, anthony, i really love that also, because i think that a lot of people believe that central station only happens when there is intentionality to do so rather than as a natural development are natural progression unless you specifically try to structure it away from that. So i think, it's, very cool that you guys were doing that because it shows that you guys were thinking about the long term evolution of this network, so definitely big fan i agree centralization is a natural occurrence it happens everywhere and we just want to get the blockchain large enough to a point where it can't be affected by that right now every blockchain is small enough that it can be affected by centralization if you think you're blockchain can't be affected by centralization you're lying to yourself and you should really really look all right so uh tell us a little bit about the e tc dev's team collaboration with open stack so that's very very new but essentially open stack is looking at working with the d c dove on a couple different things, but the one thing that they're piloting is they have essentially a passport program for having ah you know a public i'd kind of on the block chain or maybe on our permission chain i'm not sure exactly, but they're essentially just planning to use the serum classic chain and e t c does tools in order to work on different open standards and that's what opens stack has done for a really long time they just create open standard so it's great to see them working with us but i don't really have too much information beyond that i know there is and maybe you could promote provide a link to it but there was recently a talk a t open stat conference in vancouver that darcy reno of e tc dev attended so okay look at that yeah, well, make sure to put that in the show notes.

Karim:

Thank you.

Anthony:

Um all right.

Karim:

So another point of discussion during our one on one.

Anthony:

So we always liketo break it down into pros and cons.

Karim:

And this one, i don't think was e t c s fault.

Anthony:

But one of things that i saw was usually most projects rely either on a pre mine slash foundation, a treasury or ah, large ceo. And, of course, since e tc. Since the ethereum foundation essentially went with ethereum after the split, it looks like e t c was really strapped for resource at the beginning. So tell you had no money.

Karim:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Um, tell us how you feel that you have effect that has affected the development of the dc so far. But also, i know that there's, this new development about the ethereum classic labs tell us about that and and what you guys are hoping they can provide to the network.

Karim:

Okay, so everything that you just mentioned is still very new. But yes. So for the longest time, and this was actually evidenced up until about last week by our website, we didn't have money so we were all volunteers for the most part and we wer e tc dev actually managed to secure some funding early on and iowa h k had been able to create a small team and then a larger team around it but for everything else like beyond the programming there was no money it was volunteers you know ah everybody had essentially sunk their own money into it or their own time and so it was really evident in the website which had just become outdated and an unused for a really long time i feel like that was one of the worse things that could have happened t c is just we did not have a pretty website until this week but yes so it was tough because you go from this situation where you have and youth so when you're first on a theory mm pre fork you think everybody else has the same ideology is you you think everybody else actually really believes in having this decentralized network where nobody can interrupt it and it's it's like they're and i try and work with a theory um now and get along more but it was really like just a shock because you go from this place where you have a lot of resource is and a lot of opportunity to do things to a place where you don't really have any re sources and you're basically hang on by the fact that you all believe in the same idea you believe that a theory and was going to be the next bytecoin ifthere was goingto be like bitcoin, but be capable of doing more period that was it.

Anthony:

And so not having that funding just makes life a lot more difficult because you also have these things where everybody claims oh, this movement is grassroots and yes will claim the same thing too, and everybody else and no, your movements aren't solely grassroots even e t c it's current development it's being ableto build itself now is not solely grassroots.

Karim:

You do need money behind it, and so you just end up with this thing where everybody creates a solution.

Anthony:

But there's literally billions of dollars behind grassroots movements nowadays, and if you don't have that money simply don't have a voice.

Karim:

Basically now, though, we are improving a lot.

Anthony:

Ah, a theorem classic cooperative has funding both independently and initially from the ethereum classic investment trust e tc death has its own private funding.

Karim:

Iowa h k has funding a theorem.

Anthony:

Commonwealth has even secured some funding, and then we have gtc labs, which is essentially ah, an incubator.

Karim:

That also has its own funding now and what e tc labs is going to do.

Anthony:

Is it's essentially going to help projects that want to work on a theorem classic, get started, get off the ground yet connections to people within the industry, have some office space, tow work and be able to pay a couple people salaries, you know, for the three or six months that they need in order to just bootstrap the project, and then hopefully, if they boot strapped a good project that seems like it has some potential, then they could go out and find more funding and be ableto prove themselves so interesting that lee there, though i, even though not having money, makes life harder, not having money also makes what you're doing better in a way, because you actually have to prove yourself you actually have to be around for a long time.

Karim:

Without that funding and a theorem classic has been able to survive for now start to thrive without having that funding. So it shows that no, this idea of this immutable, decentralized, smart contract platform where you, anybody, can write code and having run without anybody else interfering with it, actually is powerful enough to stand on his own legs, even without massive amounts of funding.

Anthony:

Right? Right. And i and i assume you guys must have been forced to be extremely targeted with how you allocate resource is which, you know, obviously more money is better, but i'm sure that has his own value too, about actually having to think and not just throw a couple of hundred grand at everything and not necessarily end up with the best development.

Karim:

Yeah, exactly.

Anthony:

Excellent. Um, so you did mention the relationship between the e, t c and e theory? Um, how do you think that has changed since the time of the fork? How do you foresee that playing out over the next couple of years and and also specifically, i noticed you guys air focused more on interoperability and being able to work with other chains more so than trying to be the dominant platform to, you know, tell us about those two things.

Karim:

Yes.

Anthony:

So with the theory, um, we are definitely making inroads and building a better relationship and that's happening on both sides to it's, not solely a theorem classic is trying to build a better relationship with eerie omise, too, because they realize there are other theories out there there's a lot of people running their code on a lot of different networks, and we're all very similar.

Karim:

So beyond some ideological differences and some directional differences now the code on the network is very interoperable so we should be able to interoperate with each other we want to see a theory and classic be ableto interoperate with all other block chains and i think we just need to make steps ah towards that on a more human level and i'm recently spoke at ed khan and that was great i got to meet a lot of the people at ethereum they are there's a lot of smart smart people working out a theory um and so it was really nice to be able to talk to them just about other blockchain stuffing kind of avoid that silo too because when you end up being like oh these other people they're the other and we disagreed on something two years ago so we can never talk again it becomes this ah kind of thing where you know you ah nobody's around to challenge your ideas anyway war and so you have you just end up with this group think and i really want to avoid that for the a v m class of community and i think in the long run it's going to make us all stronger if we're more freely sharing both ideas and ah more freely inter operating with each other because blockchain is a very very young very very nice and technology bitcoin is the big fish in a very small pond so i don't think we're anywhere near where we should be and i think to start getting it the tribalism and fighting this early is going to be very bad for us and it's going to lead to a situation where decentralized bar chains don't win and what winds are these ah other things like diaz and ripple where they're highly centralized in highly controlled ends they win because they have a pretty interface and the users like them and so if we don't work together we don't band together than not only does does each individual project not survive but the whole block chain idea just kind of gets thrown out the window repackaged and then twenty or thirty years down the line somebody'll get upset with it and try actually relaunching riel block chains again so i really would like to avoid that type of ah outcome in all this yeah that makes a lot of sense and i have to say i really agree with you anthony especially because the pie there's so much room to cover yet there's so much for blotches in general to grow that it's pretty ridiculous to start cannibalizing each other right now when there's just so much open field and you know we really should be developing the space as a whole and i also agree with your common about you no more centralized blocks things like ripple and diaz because they're also going to be, you know, well connected and there's going to be a lot of already institutional powers that we'll have vested interest in having blocking in a more centralized manner.

Anthony:

So definitely supportive of what you guys are trying to do.

Karim:

Ah, funny enough.

Anthony:

I saw ashton kutcher gave away four million dollars with ripple on the ellen show the other day.

Karim:

And i think the four million dollar donation is great, but you could see the ad part where he's like and you just press this one budding and it turns your dollars in tow, this currency, and it just goes like that. And i just was like, this is how we lose.

Anthony:

Yeah, yeah, we we actually talked about that on the flagship, you know, we were torn because part of us was like men. It sucks that it was ripple, but on the other hand, we like just more cryptocurrencies getting out there for people to be like, oh, this is a really thing, you know? And so we were actually just debating yesterday how we felt about that.

Karim:

Exactly.

Anthony:

All right. So these are a couple more opening the questions. A couple of fun questions that i wanted to ask you one thing, when you liketo ask every guest five coins, ten years, you can trade any of them.

Karim:

Okay, um, a theorem classic, of course, boom, i would definitely still bytecoin i would definitely still ethereum, because i don't think they're going away any time soon.

Anthony:

Ah, for the other two, i would say, saya.

Karim:

Kucoin i really like the deaf team, and i really like that, even though not everybody needs their own blockchain and it's arguable that they don't. They actually have a working product, and they've had a working product that works pretty well for a while. And for fourth, i would say, maybe stellar, because even though i don't entirely understand it's, ah, type of b ft, it does seem to be a much more distributed version of ripple for doing very fast value transfers. So i would say, those were holly, be my five if i had to pick for the next ten years.

Anthony:

Nice. I like it. That isn't it. That is an interesting portfolio. Um, all right, we just hinted at the fact that blocks and really hasn't matured even though we're big fans of the space, i think we all have to admit that there hasn't been a lot of really practical applications yet, so i want to take advantage of the fact that we have somebody who's like in the world. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions, one is, what do you think purely speculative is a reasonable ah, expectation of the timeline of mass adoption and number two is what are some of the important applications in the future for blocking that you don't think really get enough attention?

Karim:

So for mass adoption, i think you'll see, like a minor mass adoption within maybe five years, but for major mess adoption, i would say anywhere from ten to thirty years, i don't believe that this is a short game, and i think that ah, mass adoptions still a really long ways off, because even when it comes to cell phones and smart phones, you know, they we're around for a really long time until they actually hate ah, peak, where they took off and everybody had one um, so i don't i just don't see blockchain taking off that fast, especially when a lot of this simple, basic things around blockchain are still really hard to do.

Anthony:

Like one thing blockchain gives you is the ability to control your own funds without anybody else in between.

Karim:

And yet still it's really, really hard for a regular person to both understand how to properly manage those funds without getting them stolen and then on top of it, it's really, really nerve wracking to do it, like if in the rare instance where i want to transfer some e t c or something like it's, just nerve wracking each and every time.

Anthony:

So, yeah, there's.

Karim:

Ah, and i think that also leads into the applications of blockchain, where i don't know exactly what the next killer aps are going to be.

Anthony:

I still believe that blockchain itself is a major killer app.

Karim:

That is not it all seen its potential yet, and but i think what we'll see is we can end up both.

Anthony:

One being able, we still need more killer aps, where it's much much easier to interact with black chains.

Karim:

So whatever your blockchain does, we definitely just need more aps to be able to properly interact with them, like even discovering a smart contract.

Anthony:

Even if you want to use a smart contract and you're a technical user, you still have to remember this really long string of addresses that doesn't make any sense and the other let's see what would the what would be a really killer app for blockchain?

Karim:

I would say probably, and it's not so much an app in and of itself as it is this ability to very easily duplicate and verify data, and right now we don't really have that in the world.

Anthony:

We have an issue where data frequently disappears, you know, people say, oh, something ends up on the internet it's there forever.

Karim:

The only time that actually rings true is when somebody actively fights to take something off the internet and then other people spitefully make archive.

Anthony:

Yeah, but there's a lot of even we heard recently archive dot or has been deleting certain information off of their archives because they've guess received subpoenas and been required to do that so i think we'll definitely see a lot more application there and that's still you know at the core of blockchain where you can have data that never goes away or that is at least much harder to i'm can't say never but that at least becomes much much harder to make it go away and that's what i think the killer aps will be and then same thing with applications in general it if you're going tohave data that's really really hard to go away you're probably going to also want to have programs that used that data that are really really hard to go away and that's where a smart contract type of block chains fit in yeah and you know i certainly agree with how difficult right now it is for the end user to interact with blockchain technology i mean you know where we're diving in the world you know pretty young guys like we at least the three host of this podcast are all relatively tech savvy and still sometimes installing a wallet is extremely difficult sometimes sending money you feel i mean you feel like a hacker and as long as that's the case it's just not going to be popularly adopted so it definitely has to become more user friendly oh, yeah, absolutely.

Karim:

All right.

Anthony:

So, anthony, anything that i may have missed about if you're in classic or any message that you want to convey to our audience, you have the floor for whatever it is.

Karim:

We have a summit coming up in september, so i would like to invite everybody out too.

Anthony:

That it's september twelve to the thirteenth it's going to be in seoul, south korea, in ah, beautiful hotel called the jw tong them on and it's just going tto be a great place to connect with people who really believe a blockchain vision who are really interested in the industry itself.

Karim:

And, you know, you can learn about a theorem classic and a lot of other blocks chains we have a lot of very knowledgeable people in our community.

Anthony:

So if you're interested, i would recommend you coming.

Karim:

It's also very cheap to attends.

Anthony:

We're only charging one hundred dollars for the ticket.

Karim:

You just need to do your flight and hotel.

Anthony:

And i know that could be a resistance, but you can probably pay for flight and hotel what you would normally pay just for the ticket for another cryptocurrency.

Karim:

Yeah, you guys are under selling yourselves critical conferences go for, like, a hundred k, a ticking it's, so ridiculous the prices sometimes, yeah, i know, but the the tc cooperative we're working towards becoming a nonprofit and we don't wantto really the the money is just to make sure that people come because when you charge people money, they tend to come or rather than when it's free so if we could actually do it free and people would still ah show up, then we would do it free but yeah, there's that and also just to touch on because i guess we hadn't mentioned it yet ah, we're still staying as proof of work currently within the ethereum classic community everybody seems to think that that's still has the potential to be the most decentralized obviously blocked chains we still only tow work towards making our black chains more decentralized, but you were saying for for work and we're probably not going to be breaking a six unless they become kind of endgame territory like they do our monero well, at least this i should always say that this is me personally, i don't actually believe in getting rid of a six because that's the way that the tech is going and if we can just get more companies involved with basic mining hardware and making it, then we'll have it be more decentralized cause even right now with gps, you know we have to cos i am d and in video that the only reason that they that people are opposing them is that amg are video haven't had a board meeting and decided yet that they're going to get into money because the moment they did that would cut out any other minor anyway, so we're just hoping to get a six to a point where there's a lot of different manufacturers and a lot more accessibility to money equipment.

Anthony:

So you know, now that you bring that up, but i didn't want to ask you, is it even really feasible as a project to try to avoid a six altogether, other than just constantly changing your mining algorithm know they'll ah, so there's a really and go from saya corn.

Karim:

David warrick ah lot of listeners may have already seen this article, but he wrote about mining hardware and how it actually works, and there are basics that khun survive hard forks, and there are they'll they won't be as fast as the ones i can't, because there are slightly less purpose builds, but they're still going to be a lot faster than other hardware that exists, and then what you're going to end up with is you're going to end up in a with a situation where every manufacturers simply makes their own hardware and minds in secret and no, and nobody knows where any of the hash raid is coming from, so the idea that you, khun either fingerprint a six i is very fuzzy to me.

Anthony:

I would love to see if people could actually do it.

Karim:

That would be very interesting, but the idea that you could just stop a six on your platform, even with very frequent hard force, is simply not going to work long term.

Anthony:

And so there's.

Karim:

Not much you can do about innovation in general, so rather than resisted and caused more centralization, because then on lee, those with the with more funding can afford to survive.

Anthony:

It's.

Karim:

Better to just embrace it, maybe go through ah painful growth period and hopefully get to a situation where you have multiple competing manufacturers around.

Anthony:

You're a six that's, a really interesting approach, you know, right?

Karim:

Yeah, rather than make defense higher, and only certain people can jump the fence.

Anthony:

You're just getting rid of the fence and hope that everybody can come in decentralized that application in general.

Karim:

Basically, yeah, exactly.

Anthony:

Don't fight the world around you.

Karim:

Yeah, as an uphill battle swimming upstream.

Anthony:

That that's awesome, anthony.

Karim:

I mean, i i think that covers most of it.

Anthony:

I really want to thank you for coming over and explaining the project.

Karim:

And also for what it's worth.

Anthony:

I know i can speak for the other two hosts.

Karim:

We are true believers in the ideals that you guys are trying to pursue in maintaining decentralization and mutability.

Anthony:

And i know it's a lot of hard work and it's, maybe not always immediately.

Karim:

Profitable.

Anthony:

So we appreciate people like yourself that are putting in the time.

Karim:

I just really like doing it, so yeah, but thank you, hossam.

Anthony:

Well, thank you so much, anthony.

Karim:

And maybe we'll have you again sometime in the future to give us some updates on the project.

Anthony:

Oh, sure.

Karim:

Absolutely.

Anthony:

Have me on any time.

Karim:

You need awesome in a fantastic thank you so much.

Anthony:

All right, lux.

Karim:

Later and that's going to do it for us here at the crypto basic part to cast.

Anthony:

Once again, my name's.

Karim:

Karen broke and i was here with anthony lusardi to discuss ethereum classic.

Anthony:

Get on our discord.

Karim:

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The members of the CryptoBasic podcast are not financial advisors, and this information is provided for entertainment purposes. Please do your own research, and don't listen to these idiots.

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