CryptoBasic Podcast

Your source for all Cryptocurrency information, made for the novice investor. 

So that's the first one there was lots of tribal clean because we're idiots now yeah but you know this is our medical and i'm making it clear that you would have to go to this university to become an expert because you are not pivx aion aion aion hey thanks again for tuning in to another edition of the crypt a basic podcast my name is michael laki and today's episode is a one o one i'm going to be joined with karim baru kei hello everybody and bren philbin i'm just here for the cookies first please do not forget to check out our other one o one episodes for deep dive on a token project or concept from the ground up today's topic of discussion is going to be ontology which has burst onto the scene in recent times and caused a lot of questions over the last few months so we're going to tackle that today kareem are you ready yeah man let's do it this is ah has been a very dense project to research and i was interested because i am a needle holder so i got some ontology and it was the right timeto dive into that was pretty much the only reason we were able to convince cream to research this because he actually was given some so he had to decide what he needed to do himself and way decided to give him a little sniff of the project and when he went hunting so this episode could be different it could be awesome it could be a little boring i don't really know how it's all going to turn out it's certainly gonna be awesome but it's going to be a little don't give any opinions going in this is the only episode that i've ever come into our i have zero knowledge like i was having internet issues and didn't think i was recording i woke up today solved those problems and i don't even know the other than the name i don't know nothing about this coin not even a little bit so like i said i'm just here for the cookies and i'm in and i don't think that this episode will be boring if you're listening to this episode because you're into is it an ontology it's just going to be very in depth it is dense this project has a lot to it so we're going to explain it all if you enjoyed our episode on cardano and neil you'll probably enjoy this episode and if you mohr enjoy our flagship is and don't really care about ontology than yeah you might wanna eject now we'll make sure you double it first yeah you don't need to listen just download and i'll make sure to say some stupid over the course the episode it's a rare absurd where there's two bikes and what cribs so without further ado let's get started karim breakdown the vision that ontology is trying to accomplish yemen so the general big picture look of ontology is they're trying to create a trust ecosystem and if you listen to a lot of their interviews or read they're multiple white papers they often referenced the idea of building a bridge between the real world and the distributed data systems or distributed ledger or plot chains and very specifically they used this ah little phrase a lot so i just wanted to put it here in the vision where they talk about being a peer to peer trust network which is cross chain cross system cross industry cross application and cross device so pretty general perspective and then also i think that it's worth here in division section addressing the why ontology and the main concepts is julie the creator which i'll get into when we get into the history a little bit but the argument that he makes is very interesting that you can build trust on a blockchain but it only exists within the blocks in itself to trust that bitcoin generates on ly exist within the bitcoin blockchain and the transactions themselves but that's really not good enough because you need other trust sources we have trust sources from our legal system from our communities from the people we interact with companies so if you look at your daily life things are supported by things like the legal system, not just a blocking so ontology is really trying to wrap this all together so that it really starts interacting in one cohesive network so the obvious first thing that came to mind you said there were multiple white papers the primary question that i have is more theory based what do you find the precise purpose of anyway paper to be and why did they choose to have multiple yeah actually i think this one's pretty easy and they're not the first project that i have seen do this so for example if you guys remember when we were doing pivx ix they had a white paper they had a purple paper they had a paper that really focused on their security protocol so my intuition from this is that the idea that you just write one big white paper what you just cram in everything that you can is kind of a remnant from big coin being the original project and how it went about it but when you get bigger and bigger projects that are going to have more more elements to them you just can't fake everything that you need to discuss in detail into a single paper so i think it's going to make a lot of sense for big projects to break down their white papers into different categories so you might have a white paper that explains the general vision which was the case here with their first white paper then you could have they have technology white paper where it's really breaking down the actual cryptography that's involved in the protocols then you have ecosystem why paper where they're basically laying out their vision of how everything will function and they have ah governance white paper coming out that hasn't been released but that's basically the explanation the more complex, the more ambitious and the more information you have to cover the more it makes sense to chunk you're white papers into specific categories and that will also be very useful because some people might want to skip certain things some people might want to just get an idea of division without necessarily diving deep into the technology well that you don't open the tech white paper you go look at the general white paper so it's all right, that sounds like a very interesting beginning to this why don't we move on to the history?

Karim:

Absolutely.

Mike:

So we're going to start first with the name of what ontology means it's a branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being or existing so it was an interesting name.

Karim:

Yeah.

Mike:

Eso i guess the connection that you want to draw there is ontology is aiming to create a sort of virtual verifiable identity that you can trust with multiple identity sources.

Karim:

So i think that part of the reference here saying hey, listen it's about being an existing and you know being recognized.

Mike:

And i also sell from one of the interviews that it's a reference to a technology project that joon lee and another co founder worked on in the past for microsoft so anyway that's what the name means in itself but here's the relevant history for the project first we have to understand that ontology is a product of the company on chain right so in the same way that iowa h k develops cardano on chain is developing ontology so they're a shanghai based research and development company that came out as a result of neil so basically the creator of neo dante created and shares which eventually became neo as neil became more and more popular different businesses where approaching them in order to use neo and to take advantage of certain applications or to interact with it and that's when they realised that it made more sense to create a private company that is almost like it company a service company and that's when on chain was created and then out of on chain you get joon lee who is currently a ceo off on chain and he's the lead developer in project leader of ontology his background is in computer science he worked in the financial exchange industries got an mba their team has really grown it's like a seventy person team i heard him saying an interview that he interviews every single person himself and more specifically to ontology and probably one of the most interesting aspects is ontology never had a nice idea never happened.

Karim:

There was no kind of public crowd sail right so the full soon private investment group invested in on chain in ontology privately they focus on things lie like healthcare and terrorism and wealth management and that was essentially the primary source of investment and then they decided to do giveaway models as opposed to running an i c e o and part of the reason that they did that i actually think showed a tremendous amount of vision by given away tokens they were making sure that they could operate in any legal system without violating any regulations and here's a quote from julie himself which shows you how far ahead these guys were thinking quote token sale regulation and for that matter crypto on blocking regulation in general is in its early stages worldwide we didn't want having a token sail to affect possible future partnership opportunities anywhere so right off the bat and what kind of giveaways where these guys doing well the most popular one that the one that people know about is the one that happened with neil but what actually happened with neo is that one of the partners for ontology was neo so ontology gave them i believe it was something like ten million tokens which the neo council decided to distribute ah huge portion of that amongst all neo holders so that's the air dropped that everybody has heard about where or everyone nio that you had you would get zero point one ontology token now and you will get another zero point one when the main net is released because currently ontology is a token on the neo platform right?

Mike:

But even though that's the most popular one that was just the one that was given to the neo community but they actually had some pretty sick giveaways the original cisco i bers of their newsletter got a thousand tokens just for being describes of the newsletter at the time of this recording that's like a nine thousand dollars value by the way each individual got a thousand tokens everybody that was described to their new slater got a thousand token that's ridiculous that's awesome this is going to shock our listeners but i have an accent we have a newsletter subscribe button that we've collected some emails for and we've never sent an email newsletter out and we're never going to send you nine thousand doll dollars for signing up for that yes brian is completely right subscribing to crypto basic will not get you a nine thousand dollars airdrop and that's by the way that's nine thousand as of the time of this recording but a thousand is a lot of tokens and then they really double down with it so they did a lot of giveaways with finance they had like a competition on there if you had on neo or ontology and you could get a random air drop of more ontology and it was actually a good amount of tokens we're not talking about like you know like a faucet, eh?

Karim:

You know solve this capture and you'll get a token and a half as you could see real take it easy on that sorry nam i hating on nana what i'm saying is that by any standards in the industry these air big give away it's funny that's funny because i've always considered how valuable it could end up being by spending ten minutes doing something kind of random crypto related and like you could easily forget about it it could be worth tons down the road the absolute i signed up for this thing called swift and i don't think it's going to be anything it's like it's supposed to be universal basic income but like you khun just like log in to their website and get one hundred tokens every single day and if it ever becomes a thing than that could end up being a lot of money but you're going to benefit but it's like astronomically unlikely to become a relevant thing but it takes me three seconds to collect the tokens each day so it's kind of like what i mean i don't i'll take my chances no yeah i mean imagine knowing you could have just signed up for this newsletter you would have just gotten nine k is so gross but anyway i think that more or less does it for the history.

Mike:

I didn't want to go a little bit deeper into that non i seo distribution because later on we're going to get into when we get to the pros and cons and overall i think that this is one of those projects that is going to really challenge and has challenged at least for me, our assumptions about what makes a good krypto project because all three of us you know, being in the space we have things that we value we have things that we think are important and you know, i think this is one of those projects that says there are actually multiple applications the boxing multiple ways towards success and you have to think a little more flexibly about what is good and bad so very quickly i really appreciated that look into the history i think there's a lot of very interesting focal point here for discussion the big one that jumped out to me though how does on chain differ from other companies that are directly related to a crypto project where i feel like you might have alluded to this answer already but how does on chain differ as abe business tied to a crypt a project for you compared to what i feel has been a negative response to that existing a few times we've covered projects.

Karim:

Yeah, sure.

Mike:

So the first one that comes to mind is, for example, dragon chain right like that's a great example of a situation where i was very critical of the thought that the dragon chain company was going to be extracting a lot of value but right off the bat one of the big difference is is that dragon chain did raise money from a bunch of investors around like they raised money and a nice ceo model where a bunch of people are giving money to them that now they have discretion about how they're going to use and a lot of that was being directed towards the private in here this is an internal project that they essentially let the community and for free what you go on by ontology on the secondary market is different but i never gave a single dollar to ontology you see what i mean that was a private investment for a network that they are developing kind of independently so you know can it still be viewed as a negative is interesting i think i do look at on chain in a very similar light to how i view io h k they are on company that develops multiple block chains on chain is now also going to have the development team that handles neil and ontology is their main project in they're going to do things like that they're going to develop block chains for businesses that want to interact with neo and ontology but it still seems to me like less of a negative because they didn't extract money from the community they had private investment and then launched a project yeah there's gonna be a lot more to discuss on this topic but i feel like you know everything's going very well so far i appreciate that let's move on to the features and structures what you got for us yeah so we're going to try to build this from the ground up it was a very difficult project to understand and please you know we mentioned there's multiple white paper so there's only so many details that we can pack in here so i'm just going to do my best to give a general overview and then you know we'll provide tons of sources in the show notes if you would like to go in and dig deeper i have a quick little off topic story since i'm having trouble contributing here we divvied up who was doing research for different projects and i was given depicts no sorry i was kevin neblio was given neblio and kareem was taking ontology and he's in our staff chat being like this this is ridiculous there's five white papers is going to take me forever this is the most in depth project of ever researched he's got like five paragraphs that meanwhile i'm over here with the neblio white paper like this is the easiest white paper everett is to make kind i'm way down to my research radio recording you are so i just want to rub that in one more time yeah i'll admit i had to postpone our recording day by twenty four hours, just because there is so much but that's why i slept in today i want to make sure you had time to finish up thank you think all right so when we are describing the structure of ontology the first thing that we have to understand is that although ontology will be a blocking there is going to be a standalone blockchain where the ontology token exists it's really more about having a network of block shing's not a single blocking so the explanation is as follows when you look at the real world there's going to be a lot of diversity complexity and each businesses have a lot of specialized use cases so when we look at things all the things that we discuss about block chains when we're comparing parkins performance scale ability all of that ontology is argument is that since all these different businesses have very spur pacific use cases and requirements making a single public chain that applies to everything is basically impossible and since different business logics required different chains to meet the different standards in the different scenarios and even different governance models the idea is therefore to create a network where every business or industry can create small controlled block chains that fit their specific needs but to allow them to interact with each other through the ontology blotch ing and through the network that they developed in order to communicate effectively and another important concept which i thought was pretty valid.

Karim:

One of the points that they make is that when you think about big institutional players like ah university ah hospital or a major corporation they're not gonna trust the success of their institution to an anonymous decentralized ledger they can't possibly do that like there might be institutions that want to incorporate bosh and into their business but they're not going to just give control and information and just say i i hope this works out we'll see where it goes nobody knows where it's going so really it's going to make more sense for those institutions tohave implement blockchain technology but in a way that they can control a little bit more and since you can't solve every me that each business has at the decentralized application level you really need to do it at the infrastructure level the way that the block chains themselves are constructed so ontology and the ontology network through on chain will build multiple blah chains that can have all kinds of different requirements they could be proof of work they could have delegated ah byzantine fault tolerance like neo they will have different consensus mechanisms and what they described the network as is a quote hyper converged chain group that looks like a matrix script so this was kind of hard to understand but it's basically layers of networks so you could have a public chain like maybe big coin or neo that different businesses air connecting two you might have ontology connecting to that chain and then the ontology chain also connecting to the individual blocks change that they've created for different businesses in different industries all right so that's more or less the idea of the network but what exactly are the communicating what is it that ontology is really trying to achieve right because i keep saying ok ontology will connect these independent block changed to a public blockchain into its own blockchain and this blockchain network all right so what are they really trying to go ahead might know i was kind of wondering you know, we've talked a lot about you know i would love to see ex business be held accountable for their actions or you know i would like to know where this certain type of money is going always wondered how public these block change you're actually going to end up being at the end of the day and i feel like it's going to be not that public well which ones though mike that's because i think that the argument that the ontology team is making in their vision is saying you're going tohave public blah chains like bytecoin like you fear him like nino and then what you need is for businesses and universities and things like that to be ableto have their own private block chains that can interact with the public watching in some way but that basically ah business or an institution can't be expected to just throw that your entire business model into a public chain and more importantly there is no public chain that is really going to be able to meet the requirements of all the different types of businesses that sounds like a really ambitious goal it sounds like maybe a necessary one i don't yet understand how they're going to accomplish that other going to accomplish their id situation that they're talking about so go forward kind of keep bringing me in keep show me how this works until we have that ah ah ha moment and i start to understand how this could possibly function on briar right?

Mike:

Okay so ultimately what ontology really wants to do is to create not even just a ny d that's actually more simplistic approach but a idee package so to speak so the way woodwork is each individual or entity in the ontology that work with developing oh auntie i'd write and it's a decentralized identity protocol that is going to map two different authentication services so what i mean by mapping to different authentication services it's let's say for example i'm gonna give you three examples of what could be on authentication service number one your local government could issue you a driver's license which not only has your date of birth and information but also says that you are allowed to drive that's a form of authentication also your university could issue a degree that says you have in fact obtain that degree and maybe lastly hospital that is issuing you a prescription is authenticating that you are the patient and that they have prescribed that to you.

Karim:

So the idea is that you would have a o n t i d that could independently communicate with all the different block things that are being held by the government office by the hospital and by the university to verify that information so of course using blocking technology it goes a little bit deeper than that because you're also gonna have protection services so even though all of the different authentication services are giving you a verifiable claims so to speak you're still gonna have control over that because nobody can access that without your digital signature.

Mike:

So even though you have a no anti id package that is loaded with information if i want to come in and verify that i need your you need your signature to approve me opening that day otherwise everything is encrypted right?

Karim:

So the putting in the last four of your social for a credit check kind of thing like the duel verification process so they can't just get in there exactly but since we're using the public private key pair and cryptographer right sing the safe's every right so and i'm going to explain in a little bit further from now exactly how that life cycle goes to give you basically walked through what it would be like from the moment it gets issued to the moment fires but the idea is to create trust by using mainly to different models you're either gonna have the centralized trust model where a group or an entity acts as what they call a trust anchor and let's say for example this could be a hospital and the hospital itself is going to do no which entities it trusts so it could say yes this is our doctors we trust him and whatever he says you're basically trusting that and then that doctor might assign some of his assistants and nurses another trust factor so it essentially starts creating a centralized trust tree where it's branching out and you can trace the trust back to these central anchors so that's one possible model of trust but what's really cool is they say that even though this model is efficient they actually think that for more complex trust relationships or when you need a higher standard of trust and honesty that they don't recommend to centralize model they recommend the decentralized model where trust transfer is achieved through mutual authentication between notes so i trust you aiken verify that i trust you in this particular claim and vice a versa and it works a little bit like google back links you know how if you have a link on a website google makes your website more valuable but if it's like a dot e d u r dot gov it's even more valuable because those websites have so much higher credibility, so it's kind of like that like a network of notes that are authenticating each other and the more credible they are the more weight that carries so obviously this creates a little bit of a blurry model because it's hard to tell but it's flexible because you can use different authentication services in different ways different models of trust so we've actually we've actually seen this on one of the other points that we've looked at we have trust agents on the stellar blockchain where both the user and the trusted individual have to agree to truck just that transaction so you can open a trust line with bank of america and bank in therefor you also now trust other trust lines by bank of america because you're getting payments from those as well so is the kind of the same thing like you get to kind of activate your trust lines down the or this that with the intention is yes sort of because but the very interesting thing to know is that ontology recognizes that the trust requirements are going very depending on the situation that we're in so let's take to real world examples if we're trying to decide for example whether this ebay or amazon seller is trustworthy then it might make much more sense to have a decentralized trust model where you could see how many notes have interacted with it and said yeah this guy's good to go and then based on the trust that each one of those notes has that's how high their credibility is so from that perspective it functions very similar to let's say amazon reviews verified amazon reviews so to speak but there are other cases like for example is this person licensed where it doesn't matter if a lot of people's opinion is that he's licensed what matters is that the agency that issues those licenses says yes or no right if it's a doctor or if it's ah somebody a financial advisor or whatever so then you might want to use the centralized trust model it's really interesting because what they're really recognizing the complexity of the problem and instead of trying to have the one size fits all solution and then trying to convince everybody that this is why it's got to go like this i think that this is really just trying to say how can we be flexible how can we be valuable in different scenarios so before we move on from the identity what i want to do is walk you through the life cycle because i feel like this really helped me click and understand what they were going for so first we're talking about when we're talking about trust this is going to focus on verifiable claims ah verifiable claim are you trustworthy do you is this your name is this your address?

Mike:

Are you a doctor?

Karim:

Is this your driver's license?

Mike:

All of those air verifiable claims they're either true or they're not true so the first step would be the application or issuance so an entity is going to issue a verifiable claim in this example were going to say brent you know you went for a course that is going to say your crypto expert from the crypto university encrypted university is going to issue the claim at the completion of your course that says yes this guy's a crypto expert and we verify right so that's the first one there was lots of bible clean because we're idiots now yeah but you know this is our medical and i'm making it clear that you would have to go to this university to become an expert because you are not today all right?

Karim:

So first you apply for this a verifiable claim and it gets issue then the second step is going to be storage where a verifiable claim can be public or private depending on what it iss if it's public it can be stored on a distributed ledger if it's private maybe it's something like health records then it can get stored privately by the entity that's issuing that information so it might be that the university that issued branch degree doesn't want everybody's information out there on the blushing so they have ah internal blocking where they're verifying who does have that degree but they're storing it internally within their systems.

Mike:

Now let's say that brent needs to show that he does in fact have that degree so this is where you go to presenting the user can choose to whom this a verifiable claim is going to be shown to and which information has shown so it might be that on that degree or that verification it says this person has this degree and here's all his information like his grades or his address and brent has control over that information because it's ultimately about him even though it was issued by something else so i can't see it unless brent gives me the go ahead to see it with this private keep what i would love to see in the future is like you walk into a doctor's office instead of filling out seven pages of paper work they can hand you an ipad and you have to like log in with your certain log in account i didn't ask you like it's like a line of yes or no questions you want to offer your verifiable first name yes you want to give them your last name yes you want to give them your address no do you want to give them your phone number?

Karim:

Yes and you can kind of control what kind of information is going to share with certain types of businesses that's basically what ontology is going for here and i think that at least from their presentation it's a totally different question whether they can pull this off but at least from the vision and the presentation it seems like that's exactly what they're going to be able to do so after the fact that you have control of what information has seen and not seen there's also the verification and this is where the usage of public and private keys and dont ieds really come into play because let's say that now ah company is trying to decide whether to hire brent for this position that requires this crypto expertise not only can brandt use his own t i d to show that he's been issued the certificate but the company can also verify the o n t i d off the issuer of this crypto university so they're going to be able to analyze how trustworthy that university itself iss does that mean son so they're not just seeing brent certificate but they're getting an assessment off how trustworthy issuer is and if you guys think about it the potential for this is especially when it comes to counterfeit information is very easy to counterfeit a past border or counterfeit documents but if it's on the blockchain by the issuer and you could see that the issue is actually the anti i'd held by the governmental institution well then that's impossible to fake i know we're only in the features and structure sections so i know that there's likely a chance that you're intending to answer this question anyways but the kind of theoretical question that i'm developing as i'm listening to this, it seems as if this is going to be absolutely unbelievably useful if it's mass adopted but like as i'm hearing this in just pure theory perspective how long is it going to take before one of us is able to use the blockchain to verify something from somebody else?

Mike:

I feel like this is a really long ways away there's a lot in crypto that's a really long way away but the thought of walking into your doctor and having them used blockchain technology to connect your i d and your medical records is even further i think because i still haven't even gone to a doctor that will do a waiver on an ipad or do a waiver online or do a waiver like send me the pdf and let me fill it out and send it back to them like the doctors i go to are all still happens i've had that happen a few times i mean that that's common enough think of this i feel like it should be but it's never happened to me like that i don't go to a ton of doctors but the ones that i have gone to inside their technology is okay but outside in the front office it's fill out all this paperwork with all this information and in your own handwriting and we will definitely be able to decipher it.

Karim:

So mike, i think there are multiple components to your question and the way i would break it down is as follows one is what is the timeline yesterday question is yes this is an ambitious project that's really going for high level of adoption so this is down the road how far down the road it's hard to tell especially because as we've discussed before change tends to be exponential so the change we saw in the last ten years should be less than the change we see in the next ten years so that is going to be a factor but the real question to me is not when the real question to me is who is or what project is on the best path to achieving those levels of mass adoption whether they takes five years or ten years based on what we've discussed so far and based on some more things that i'm gonna tell you later on in the episode i believe that ontology has one of the most clear paths towards achieving that you had said something very offhandedly that went over my head now i'm going to go back and circle around you said that you feel like change what exponential change happens okay so the societal change that you observed over the last every as technology improves that technology is used to create new technologies which causes exponential change so there was more change between two thousand and two thousand eighteen then there was between nineteen eighty and the year two thousand even though they're both about twenty more change.

Mike:

More chill okay correct so i thought i heard you say let's change and that for me alright yes i feel like the change is growing continuously right so we've talked about this before but like it's even sometimes hard to really conceptualize that the first smartphone didn't come out that long and i was like two thousand six but things are moving so quickly and still happens so fast right that's that's the point that i was like wait a second no i feel like it's changing really fast i misheard you say so i thought you're saying it's slow down over time so all i'm saying is that while i agree that these things should be down the line and that we shouldn't anticipate this toe happen overnight because these air along projects what i will also say is that our recent history and our recent assessment of how quickly things change is not a good predictor of how things will change in the future especially because we can't predict how all these technologies are goingto affect things and before we move on just a finish the life span you know we talked about verification how the company could verify that you have this degree and they could verify how trustworthy issuer of that degree is and then the last step is cancellation which is also very cool because it's very effective the issuer can put a time limit on how long that verifiable claim is valid so perfect example is going to be a driver's license so a governmental entity could issue a drivers license that says yes mike laki can drive he's passed the driving test and this is valid for ten years and if you don't renew it it'll just automatically expire after five years or ten years or whatever the line is that means that you wouldn't be able to then like today we could take a driver license that's expired and maybe if somebody didn't see the exploration that you could get away with doing some kind of a trick here it's built into the system where the expiration date would automatically make it invalid and then it's worth mentioning also that there are going to be ways to do this anonymously for specific use cases i believe that they used ah ck snarks for certain things so what's an example of this i don't know maybe for a purchase on the internet you need to prove that you are eighteen years old but you don't want to prove anything else you don't want to know your name or your last name or anything well, your driver's license has your date of birth so you might be able to prove i'm eighteen years old but you don't have to add any more information and they could verify that that information is true and it's being issued by a true government entity and that is being presented by the actual owner of that driver's license so all that makes sense more or less as faras like how the idea issuance woodwork and how it can interact in different cases certainly know i'm a big fan of what the design looks like here and how carefully they seem to it's almost like they had enough conversations with the big businesses and said oh okay definitely mike yeah but i mean bigtime spoilers this is a business driven project with the laser focus on business adoption and will get even more and death into that in a little bit but there's no question this is not a big coin and this is one of things that i met at the beginning that if we want to evaluate every project through the quote unquote soto she's vision lenses we're going to miss ah lot of what's happening in this space and this is where i say we have to be more flexible because you know when it comes to things like are these guys decentralized really well as pretty complicated you know pretty much on chain is in charge and and what about the circulating supply and how much the team has oh yeah understood but these guys they're not trying to be big coin this is something else so we have to analyze it separately that's what i love so much about this space is that nobody knows what it's going to become which direction it's going ahead.

Karim:

Nobody really knows what it's gonna look like in twenty years i certainly don't i mean i have preferred visions there's things that i would like to see happen but we just don't know where it's going and everything about this project so far is trying to do things a little differently but that's going to be continuous in my opinion there's a lot of products they're trying to use all the previous open source code and technology to take a turn for the better so i'm definitely interested here how the rest of this episode goes about okay, so for the remaining of the features and structure since i've already given you the core vision like i feel like you understand the core functionality which is this trust i'd network so now i'm just going to go into a little bit more technical detail on different parts so for those of you war interested for example as far as the ledger itself the block chain of ontology that consensus mechanism that they're going to use is something called o c which stands for on turin consensus engine and they basically took the delegated byzantine fault tolerance from neo and they added a verifiable random function and then they used that to create a consensus and so what does that mean that means that the nodes are being picked at random to see who can verify it's it's very similar to neo within itself and the block creation speed is therefore really like me!

Mike:

Oh it's very quick, it's only limited by internet connection so it comes out to about every ten seconds i believe they have a new block being created and the v r f the verifiable random function that i mentioned is what determines who is going to get to participate in consensus validation so that's for you techies out there that's just a quick that's how they reached consensus if you want to dive deeper into that go ahead the technology paper is on their documents another interesting thing is thinking of ontology because in ah matter similar to dragon chain but different they want to help build blocks things for all these businesses and for all these adoption right so they are essentially releasing two packages, so to speak they have ontology common which is a set of standardized models to reach participant consensus it's common modules and protocols essentially think of it as ah cookie qatar out of the box lego blocks to make blockades right it's simple it's a very basic things so if your business and you don't have very specific requirements they can come in and just be like here just just go a b, c d and you can install it should be separate from that they have something called ontology custom.

Karim:

These air the customizable protocols and modules based on the specific application needs of the industry or the business they're implemented differently according to industry standards according to regulation and just to give you an example there might be an industry that needs tto have know your customer parameters where there might be a business that needs tohave a thousand transactions per second and there might be another business that just needs toe have very effective storage so all of those blocks things are being built differently but they're being built by the ontology team in such a way that they're going to easily integrate and connect to the ontology network so that they can communicate with each other so their ecosystem can be divided into their technological aspect which is the core team the developer community and they're going to have a lot of application partners that you really want to go to businesses and say hey you build your applications that are going to exist on our change and let's go to the token distribution how it work something tokens are out there because this is a part where there might have been the community anger yes bright i'm looking at our outline here and karim was obviously high when he wrote this because this section is this is called the took distribution oh token distribution my value i missed an end distribution i wish the listeners could have enjoyed cribs face when it would brett was like halfway through that sentence he was just like wait i thought it was like some kind of missed something somewhere but yeah there was a mistake all right focus general i'm stretching tonto all right, so the way that the tokens were just remember there was no eye ceo so i'm excited for this conversation like i'm a random ontology holder and when i got the initial air drop i was like, hey, who cares and like now it's suddenly becoming a relevant projects i'm just like the token distribution process and basically the rest is conversation just seems like i have no idea where it's gonna go right?

Mike:

Okay, so but the ontology token started out as a neo token, but they're just using that for distribution they didn't do that right as an i c e o they didn't do that to raise money so they are they're like they're like icon there just holding their place on the neo platform for the meantime yes that's a good analogy but also the fact that they're using this in order to distribute it seems it seems like they're trying to associate with neo in some way but they want to have their own blockchain i'm going to get into the religious right all right, all right one aion ology because i feel like there's a lot of confusion there but the main thing is the circulating supplies going to pretty big it's going to be one billion tokens, but the part that could be a little bit controversial is how much control the ontology team has over the supply because they're distributing twelve percent to the community that has already been on lot but that's what they're using for all these random air drops for these contest for the newsletter and they're not done by the way they have a couple of more events scheduled so twelve percent they're distributing to the community before i move on right off the bat i think about that on ly twelve percent is going to the community so from a lot of people's perspective eighty eight percent of the tokens are distributor however they want what anyway twenty eight percent of the tokens are being used for institutional partners and they're unlocked over the next two years but this is where it gets interesting when we're talking about adoption rather than raise money and have a bunch of tokens they're actually going to use the tokens as an incentive and to help fund the partnerships with different businesses like for example go to a big institution or exchange or hospital whatever and the project actually being able to give the institution tokens in exchange for them putting in the time and work to create the blocking that's going to integrate with ontology essentially in the same way that they're rewarding the community with tokens they want to incentivize institutional partners with tokens as if they were kind of like the community what we've seen we're usually just gets targeted to the investor so to speak the neo council got ten percent and as you saw they distributed some of that new holder's twenty five percent goes towards ecosystem development the core team gets fifteen percent of the tokens and they only get three and a half percent released every year approximately so the bottom line is they have a lot of control over the tokens but the argument that i would make is they didn't have a nice ceo these tokens are being distributed for them to grow their network it's actually a very intelligent way to grow this i've been thinking a lot about this topic recently and i'm glad i have a way to introduce it here everything in your business could be breaking down to the category of a resource so you know it's interesting we all kind of grew up in the generation of video games we would play a game we've talked about age of empires i'm sure on here before well in a game like eight empires you have your gold in your stone and you use your reason you use your resource is to decide where you want to build your town where you want to connect your barracks and build a wall or you know based on the terrain that your map is on how you can maximize your efficiency so what i'm seeing here is the concept of what a resource is is broad enough that it can be used in many different ways, and i think in crypto it's almost important for every project kind of look at themselves and say, what are the values that we provide?

Karim:

What differences do we make and understanding what you actually do contribute what value you have in a business relationship knowing what your assets really are is really fascinating to me you know question and as far as how the tokens are being used the interviews the general vision it's so clear to me that right now the intelligence team is focused on growing the network they understand that their value proposition is going to come from having a wide network and these tokens are essentially being used to bring in mohr institutional partners and individuals to grow that network so that it can actually start creating the value that it can't so was there any sort of on chain way to control the distribution or is this just we have all these tokens this is what we're going to use them for well the tokens have released schedules so certain amount of tokens air locked up like something like half of the tokens are locked up and they get unlocked and chunks and this is basically what they put forward as the allocations like this percentage is going to go to the court team and it's kind of sustain us this percentage is going to be partners this percentage is going to be for community drives and giveaways etcetera, etcetera i'm certainly not very knowledgeable on on economics but i've always also found a little interesting when certain types of tokens havea long lockup period you know i feel like when you control the supply in a certain way it affects the supply and demand obviously i'm curious you know if currently it's estimated that a hundred thirteen million aion supplies that what i understand that is correct currently that is what coin market cap okay so your jump into one of my cons but coin market cap and a coin check up both have them as a one hundred and thirteen million circulating supply but that's not true basically all the amount that is unlocked should be considered circulating supply and that amount according to ontology is five hundred thirty seven million what that means and this is not a con on the project i want to make this very clear and i'm on ly covering it because you asked me about it now this was going to be in the pros and cons this is not a technical con of the project but this could be a personal con foreign investor that is looking to invest in ontology and that is that the fact that the circulating supply and basically all the big websites is incorrect means that the token is really valued higher than it appears to be which if you're trying to determine valuations might mess you up you write like until let's say ontology let's just say the easy price of ten dollars it's hovering around that right now it's a little bit less but is going to make the math easy if there's one hundred thirteen million tokens and it's at ten dollars then you can look at it and say oh okay anthologies valued at around one point one billion dollar market cap but it's really not because there's five hundred thirty seven billion million in circulation so it's five times as much so it's actually valued at around five billion which would put it in the top ten or fifteen so the reason i consider that a conference investor is because the market cap and the value of the token could change rapidly based on release and adjustments to circulating supply yeah that's the point that i was going to add it seems as though you know where does this air come from?

Mike:

Because if there's a recent unlock of four hundred million tokens which i believe is forty percent of total supply right he said one billion overall yeah okay so if forty percent of the tokens are recently released or going to be released very soon then that has a massive adjustment to the price people are willing to pay for it in general we've noticed a lot very often when i seo releases their tokens oftentimes the price of the coin dumps quite a bit because people obviously it's been a lot easier in the past you know, years so but a lot of times when tokens have gotten released after an i c e o of the profits have been huge people like to take the profits right away and if you distribute let's say your i c e o distributes eighty percent of the tokens in the market they all kind of show up at once and a lot of those people have made a lot of money and are willing to sell it then it drives the price down quite a bit so i don't know that you can answer this but if five hundred million is in circulating supply already and the price is what it is then clearly if that's what the supply and demand dictates that people are willing to pay the nine inch ten ish dollars for this then obviously the market cap itself is significantly higher ef four hundred million tokens are still filtering their way into circling supply then it's very likely that that there's going to be a price drop in the near future i can't speculate on that i don't want to encourage or say no no no i understand your question mike i understand your question and i'll do my best to answer it the answer is this number one why is there such discrepancy?

Karim:

The only thing that makes sense to me based on what i was able to find is that coin market cap and coin check up are representing the amount that is being exchanged in secondary markets and secondary wallets.

Mike:

The amounts that have been airdropped happen are being exchanging sold on all that stuff even though three hundred million four hundred million tokens have been unlocked for the ontology team to use there might not be considering that as part of the circulating supply so ontology considers it because the tokens are unlocked and they can move him around if they want to but maybe coin market cap doesn't concern because they're still with the ontology team to answer the question is that going to affect the price it's really hard to tell obviously an increase in supply is going to in general you know make the price go lower but there are other factors is so hard to determine but i can't emphasize enough and this is really important i only think that this is a con for an investor trying to make an educated decision based on valuation i do not think it's a con on the project itself and it says nothing about the technology or its success it just makes it difficult as usual what else is new it makes it very difficult to evaluate a cryptocurrency project it's like nobody knows what they're doing when it comes to that it's very difficult as we discuss a lot though in my opinion this adds a ton of skill to the vibrating process and i kind of like it maybe yeah i mean maybe it has a ton of skill but it's hard to tell so anyway and one more thing that i want to discuss this faras the structure is how the tokens are going to be structure once the main that is actually released so when owen tease main net goes live they're goingto have a similar model to neo so for those of you that don't know neos model is tohave the neo token as he kind of like a ownership of the network and then tow have gas as a separate token that is used as the actual utility to transact on the network it's going to be the same case with o aunty so owen tea is going to be a security style token that is used for voting and that is used for things like staking and etcetera whereas o n g is going to be the utility token off the block chain so when somebody executes a smart contract when somebody pays a transaction fee when somebody's paying for storage they will be using omg so oh aunty will produce o n g in the same way that neo produces gas that seems a little counterintuitive to there we don't ever want to be blocked by a regulatory committee because that's super security like i guess all securities have there i pose so maybe that is the underlying thing if they didn't do that then it doesn't really matter yeah it's gonna be really interesting but i think that the reason that they get away with it completely is because there was never a public sale and most of these regulations air usually meant to quote unquote protect the public so security violation i mean you know that's why some things you have to be an accredited investor et cetera et cetera et cetera but ah private company getting a private investment and then giving away shares into the project for free i don't think that violates any loss and it's kind of ingenious and then the last thing is that even though it hasn't been clarified yet and they're governance white paper has not been released that as more applications and more things get constructed they want to add mohr utility to the omt token so besides voting and besides being used for the consensus mechanism they want to make it so that owing to you will eventually do other things but for the time being just think of oh inti is the equivalent of neo and omg is the equivalent of gas so since i'm making that comparison now is the right time because there's a lot of confusion on the internet on the forums on everything about the relationship between neo and ontology okay so number one the ontology token is currently on the neo platform as we discussed before but that is more or less the extent of their relationship they're goingto release their own me net and also the fact that on chain the private company has the development teams for both projects neo the way they view the partnership is that neo is going tto handle more like the asset part of the economy.

Karim:

Token ization of assets exchange so if for example somebody that's using the ontology services wants to have a nice ceo ontology is going direct them towards neo because that's not the type of thing that ontology is going to do ontology will provide digital identity and other type of customized services to kneel and neo is also going to bring toe ontology they're smart contracts essentially ontology is going to use a lot of the neo smart contract technology they're going to use the neo virtual machine essentially they're going to be working together a lot too it's sending each other business and using each other's technology but they're really tackling different things knows about assets and ontology is more about well julie would say riel business scenarios but also i d verification building private blockchain is not so much like acid transfer that's not what ontology is trying to do and they're also working together on research they're pooling resource is on research for across chain technology for cryptography research, academic research all of that stuff so the way to think about neo and ontology is a partnership of independent projects that are trying to accomplish different things as far as thie governance this part i wanted to dive in a little bit just to understand it somewhat it's a little centralized in some ways but also it sounds very efficient so the most important thing kind of like there's a neo council on ta logy is gonna have an ontology council they say they're going to be focused on the development of a transparent governance system they're going to manage all the tech finance public relations and even within the ontology council they have broken that down into separate committees so there's an executive committee a technical management committee and application management committee and ah finance and in hr committee all of that within the omt counsel they're going to have an annual security assessment where they evaluate the sustainability of the project the quality how progresses coming along and then this is just a couple of examples of what committee would handle certain things so for anything that's management related they would call a meeting between the finance and hr committee and along with the council chairman they would make a decision if it's anything that involves coding or like expenses how we're going to use this money then that's usually done via vote and if it's like an emergency event something huge happened monero maybe there's a hack we need a quick patch or something then the executive committee would handle that vote now how are the members of those committees chosen by whom are they chosen that's the part where i really couldn't find much that's the part where you khun definitely argue that there's a lot of central station my guess is that on chain the company has a lot of reading my mind who's about to ask about that yeah no there's, no question about it how the committees are made up on how the council is made up is not the blockchain decentralized vision people power not really this it's more like neo however it could also be structured in a very efficient way and as a quick side note before we go into the actual pros and cons and see if you guys have any other questions this could be just in my own mind but as i'm researching neo and now researching ontology i drew a lot of parallels with the chinese government in society and western bloc chains and western governments in society in the sense that there is no question that when it comes to democrats station personal rights, individual freedom anything like that western democracies are far ahead of the chinese government but from a purely social economic development perspective the efficiency of the chinese model can't really be questioned i mean there's debate to be had but i mean this is the fastest growing economy in the history of the world where they took six hundred million people from poverty and are making a middle class in basically a single generation so in a lot of ways i look at neo and ontology and yeah in some areas you're like i wish this was more decentralized i wish this was more open to the public but also it seems highly efficient, targeted and focused you know what i'm saying?

Mike:

And i'm not picking a favorite here i'm not saying which is better i'm just observing the difference so one thing i'll say that has been a theme when i look at coins is decentralisation is my primary factor as to whether i appreciate a coin or not so a project like icon has created something like this but they have very clearly and very specifically decentralized the shit out of it so they're planning to connect all block chains they're not targeting specifically idea but they are targeting universities and hospitals and that kind of thing so i can see that my hope is that another project like this gets mohr decentralized online that there's a way to elect these people to the council or like and you have voting rights with your auntie tokens or something like that it's one of my wishes for neo as well but like you said earlier i do not believe that a company that didn't have an i c e o has necessarily has that responsibility to the community any of these companies that have had a nice seo i will shit all over them for being completely centralized ized that's why i had an issue with neblio when we recorded that recently they did a nice ceo and they came into the crypto community and took the money from the crypto community to create something and the underlying theme to that is it i feel like they have a responsibility to be decentralized when they're taking money from the people but if you're not they created something out of nothing here and they really don't know the community anything yeah i'm letting you in on it yeah you read my mind right because as i was researching this i knew and that's part of the reason so ah little background info usually if the person who's hosting and the person who researches in the project and if somebody didn't look into it they don't necessarily jump on the show but part of the reason why when brad and i had talked i was like you might have a good time on this episode is because i knew reading this project like home ma'am brent is going to hate the fact that it's not decentralized but this is precisely the part that i was hoping you'd see and clearly you do which is without an i c e o without that kind of responsibility with the community where basically almost everybody that has only tokens got him for free or bottom second hand it changes the responsibility dynamic and another thing that i will know is it'll be interesting to see how much centralisation plays a role because if this becomes just a useful protocol in the sense that like t p i p is the protocol as used by everybody or lennox or whatever i mean i understand that it's open source but it's as long as it works doesn't matter how centralized the original development team was and i also don't want to make it seem like they're completely centralized they are going for decentralization and one of the things that they argued as to why they went with open source for example and one of the interviews with julie because there's a private company right it's a private company with private investment why go open source and his response was ah blockchain is a trust building machines and if you want that trust it has to be open source and it has to be completely transparent it's almost as if he's like planting a garden and you can't have a forest until you have something smaller and it has to grow and you have to give it the right water and you know fertilize it and let it become itself i like it yeah that's exactly right i want to go a little bit more into the nuance here between the two things and why i'm willing to forgive a non decentralization on something that did do it i seo it's the same shit with terms in conditions like when you go in to facebook and you just quickly accept the terms and conditions there's a reasonable expectation there they're not going to be reading your text messages or knowing what your text messages are knowing your phone calls are but it was in the terms and conditions so you accepted it same thing with the nice ceo with an icy oh that ends up being really centralized you had an expectation when you invest in that idea that it was going to be decentralized because it's part of the crypto currency community given all the information was out there if you read far enough into it you would see that that wasn't the intention but that's part of where i'm drawing the line there silly not everybody reads the terms and conditions yeah her fault he didn't but i still think that it matters yeah and he goes back to we always talk about this our personal bias might be towards just decentralization and things like that but also we need to evaluate each project on the merits of what it's trying to be ray not everything is trying to just be big coin or even ethereum so we can't just compare everything toe other projects we have to give everything an opportunity to exist as what it's trying to be and then evaluated on the goals and also one more thing i would like to point out you can give something like this to benefit of the doubt if they didn't take an icy they didn't take money from the community until they give you a reason not to trust them kind of like again i'll go back to facebook facebook has now given you a reason not to trust them google hasn't google has all the same shit and they're getting all if not mohr information from you haven't violated that trust yet so it's you can kind of be okay with using their service so i'm going to compare ripple to ontology right now where is ripple?

Karim:

I don't think they had a nice seo i'm trying to remember but i think they're tokens were all given away and we did our ripple episode a long time ago and this isn't something i thought about then and i was wondering am i going to give them more of a past now that i'm thinking about this and the answer is no because they have violated the trust also they went ahead and froze person shitload of funds just cause they felt like it was okay yeah they kept somebody from selling their ripple because they thought that it was going to hurt the project that's a huge violation of abuse of power right?

Mike:

And and i'm really glad you bring that up because another good example i think is neal even when we didn't you know we talked about the neo counsel in the way it's structured it's really not as decentralized as other projects but basically they've just been building their ecosystem and they haven't done anything to violate the trust of the network the people who believe the neo and invested in neo and join you like neil has continued to nurture their ecosystem in the way that people expected them to whereas ripple made some huge trust violations.

Karim:

What i see here in this discussion is a little bit more of the complexities of what a platform really is well a lot of what we're talking about here with icon and neo and now even ontology when you're setting the framework for what you're trying to envision ten years from now you know we may not see it the same way they do and they may make decisions are more than likely above our head and have more thought put into it and we've had this discussion plenty of times like i like centralized power in people i can trust or in people that are trying to do the best that they can but i don't like i don't like centralized power in the hands of people that are nefarious or trying to look out for themselves obviously that's a near impossible distinction to make so i don't know there's times where i want a centralized power control there's times where i really want to centralization it's kind of ah pushing pole that's right?

Mike:

Because it's a trade off between efficiency and i guess freedom well i feel like we need a bell for certain words that we use a lot like trade off like i don't have you ever listened to the fantasy focus podcast but when like when pod vader would talk about the different matchups every time he said things like tilt there would be a belly goes off we should do that when we say things like ground up the o r tradeoff well i'll admit that trade off i consciously hammered it in as many episodes as i could because i love train all i love the idea it's a great way to look at it it's a great way to be a guy like that it's one of our signatures that's why i want to remind people with a ding like we'll have to figure out what the turtles are on that we can't just steal everything from them accidentally realised we're stealing when we call things official we're stealing it from that also i totally forgot that they do that yeah i don't know i don't feel like official is a kareem is yelling at us to shut up because the episodes too long alright i'm telling you guys to focus this is the host job eye cream alright so we've been discussing several things we've got off topic a few times it's getting a little long already i we apologize let's get this ship back on track so go for the pros i would like to start with karim go ahead and it's kind of recap what it is simply that you really value that this project is putting out there all right?

Karim:

You're right for the first pro i'm going i'm going to start out with this one which actually resisted the urge to respond earlier remember when you were like yeah, but how long before this actually that well turns out ontology is already doing verification work for the chinese government and financial institute which you guys got to solve i face what i read that bullet point i was like wait what you know i missed it but yeah so listen these guys are on track i mean this is a fast track to business adoption there already interacting in that society right so that's pro number one pro number two the fact that it's open source like i told you guys before it is a private company they could have a lot of something themselves but by being open sores by opening up to the development community around the world that was going to grow more quickly it's more transparent it's going build more trust which makes sense it would be incredibly ironic for a trust platform tio not be open source right but i'm still going to give it to them as approach another pro is the fact that there was no i seo i kind of really like that i know it changes the dynamic it's weird i like it that is going to allow them to enter any legal system without violating investment loss that's huge right there another pro the team not just julie their development team the ontology and on chain team basically in china these guys are understood as the leaders of the space they are the microsoft of blocking or whatever you wanna call it they have very high standards.

Mike:

They know what they're doing.

Karim:

They have great relationships and it's part of the reason why didn't one of them actually work for microsoft yeah julie was apart of a microsoft development team and actually i think the cofounder as well but i don't have his name on hand you know what it was ah ning who the senior protocol architect as well all right, another pro i hinted at this earlier when we were talking about businesses these guys have very very powerful partnerships and i'm not talking about tron hi p stuff of like let's see how the name is or even birds oh look pornhub you recognize porn that they're better they sound like the opposite of their being the correct so this was very strategic number one one of things that julie explained was that they actually go after top level financial partnerships especially of like companies that are like equity management companies because they have so many holdings in so many businesses that are part of classical industries.

Mike:

So if you can partner up with a company that owns a ton of other companies then you can implement that network into all of them especially because if omt succeeds and creating something that is more efficient now these wealth management companies these investment companies can take that to their businesses and say use is going to make it more efficient so i mentioned before that folks son which is one of the largest investment companies in china if not the largest was one of the main investors but another big partner of them is sequoia investments sequoia china they have over four billion dollars in assets and i just wanted to give you guys a quick rundown of some of the companies that they own part obviously but we're talking about hundreds of millions not like they own a couple of shares berkshire hathaway mastercard rolls royce apple google oracle papal stripe youtube instagram yahoo what's up you guys ever heard of those what's up what's up guys have heard of these what yahoo is pretty big okay i've heard of them it would about rolls royce i think brand was trying to troll there but actually yahoo finance is like a really big finance matters that's true no yeah i mean i get it look the bottom line is they're partnerships are riel business partnerships with rial gigantic businesses and wealth management companies and good no cream i know i've told the story a few times on the podcast but when i heard the stat about how much money wal mart could save switching ten percent of the credit card transactions toe blocked in transactions like this seems like a no brainer to eventually you know start at the top with the people that like you can sit down and actually explain how this is all gonna work too and then it's their responsibility to explain it their employees is okay like we have this ground breaking technology that is going to save us a lot of money and here's exactly how we're going to implement it that's right and look i mentioned the verge porn how partnership and i know this console but one of my main criticisms was this doesn't say anything about birch it doesn't say anything because the due diligence required on porn hubs part in order to partner with virtue is almost non existent this is totally different when you have a investment company of massive conglomerate with a four billion dollar valuation where their main business model is literally tto find good companies and invest in them and they have decided to partner and invest in ontology that does say something about ontology because these guys did do their due diligence before investing in this you know what i mean it's a totally different relationship so that's a huge pro the partnerships that they're lying and then i have one last pro that's not really a pro is just i like it because i'm a nerd their roadmap on their development thing it is titled the three stages are socrates for two thousand eighteen plato for two thousand nineteen aristotle for two thousand twenty i love it and little reference i don't have you guys know this but socrates taught plato in plato taught aristotle so i love it i guess a pro is that they are nerds and i like nuts what is that even the verge ceos a nerd like there's nobody creating stop it!

Karim:

No, no no listen most blocking projects like to name all their stuff cool stuff that is going to sound cool and cliquey the ones that have named it like super nerdy history related stuff have been cardano and now ontology so yes i love him what is this what is this other thing highlighted that you could talk about oh, sorry i missed i missed approach okay this's been making me laugh like five minutes you skipped over it yeah aye aye aye aye mrs somehow okay, i put this is a pro their technology white paper is riddled with math that means nothing to me it might as well be an alien language bye here's what i like they put their math out there and this is what you have to understand this is about the community picking it apart.

Mike:

If a project doesn't have their underlying math out there in the community, then it can't be evaluated.

Karim:

So you have no clue if it's good or bad.

Mike:

Now wait a minute, kareem, but you don't understand what it says.

Karim:

So how do you know if it's good or bad?

Mike:

Well, i know that it's ah project worth hundreds of billions of hundreds of millions of dollars and that there are thousands of knowledgeable, competent developers out there who have read this and glancing over who do have the knowledge and if it was total crap, if it didn't work, we would have found something about it so the fact that they're willing to put their underlying mathematics actually out there open to critique gives the project validity to me because i know that either an academic circles or in developer circles but there are people who know that now have the ability to criticize as opposed to private ownership in hiding your math and just oh yeah trust us that all this is gonna work so that's another pro and it kind of goes hand in hand with open source i guess yeah no i i'm a big fan of and that that actually makes sense i was not sure exactly here meaning by that so a cream excellent job in the research great stuff you're putting out there so for the cons, why don't we move over to karim?

Karim:

Yeah, we don't we don't want brent to do the cons on the all right so a couple of cons would be that i could find is as we discussed it might be more centralized than people would like or maybe not just centralized but something like the ontology counsel we might not know how it's determined, so that could be a con from a community perspective the fact that they are extremely ambitious we've said this about cardano we said this about a couple of projects you're trying to achieve a lot and you know they might not be able to do it it's extremely difficult the circulating supply issue from a personal individual investor perspective can't emphasize enough that that's not a con on the project itself but the fact that they have that many tokens and that it can be released at any time and that that can affect evaluations so much my b a con you know i'll be honest with you there's not a lot that i could find a really i really like the way the teams operating i really liked your vision i like how the ladle out it is very possible that there are a lot of technical cons that i am simply not qualified to spot but you know if if anybody out there sauce amore hasn't opinion something that i might have missed our mission by all means communicated to us i know that we are very very careful as a team when we talk about price when we talk about investments we talked about a lot of different things the only thing i don't really know if this is a con or a pro but as a reminder when a project lends itself in a certain direction for me a certain type of opinion that i've formed on it and i want to share that opinion that opinion is pivx this is another project more civically than others that i think is going to need to be part of a really long term style portfolio i don't think there's like this this is not something that you're looking to pick up for six months or a year or you know it's impossible to turn what kind of price growth or lost you could have in that type of a smaller timeframe if this is something that people decide to invest in i just want to remind people that this is going to be something that's part of like a global framework change that is probably going to take quite a bit of time so just keep that in mind and also we didn't really cover our biases before ended we do we discuss that at all i mean i mean we talked about no none of us had bought it i know you you got a little bit and drop i got a little bit is an airdrop i never got rid of it i wanted to research it before i got rid of it and i didn't know anything believe it or not before this episode so i didn't know any actually i probably have some because of neo but i actually don't have any meal anymore you have new right well i don't know when the airdrop was i might i might have to depending on the airdrop was i might have some of this but not much so and were there any competitors that you guys found that you think are relevant to mention here okay so this is debatable i think that the closest competitors there's a project called the key on dh there's also even on the neil blocks in itself there's something called neo i d but i don't think they're true competitors and here's why neo i d or the key art identity issuers so they would actually be part of the ontology network because remember what ontology wants to do is not to issue you an i d that says oh we ontology the project say that you are there's no no what they want to do is connect to all types of different authentication services and issue and services so in theory ontology could connect to your neo id to show ur and also connect to your university to show that you have a trunk right it could also like your department of motor vehicles correct sacks office there's a lot of really cool use case is this correct so ontology is more of a network that the key or new idea would be a part of but i think the closest competitors that we can think of conceptually i would throw in civic maybe i don't know what i don't know what civics trying to do exactly i know i think civic is another example of an issuer but a good fair point fair point but absolutely that they are well actually you might be right i would have to say i haven't dived in pacific but i felt like this is what they're trying to close the verification rather than issues i felt like if you do know anything about the key i've heard the key is quite a bit similar to civic in regards to there's probably more of an issue or provider like groups alan about major key so hey brent says you're the guy that does all the shopping where we're going to buy this if we choose to do so so you can buy it on the standard even buy it on finance you can buy it on ok eat x will be but the interesting place that you could get a hold of it is switch eo which is the neo decentralize exchange kinda there is a little bit i think switch he owes the one that's had some problems with no your customer and not giving people their coins that oh no you know what that might be shape shift adam but there is a decentralized exchange called switch eo which is on ly neo tokens all right great is there anything else that you would like to discuss on this topic before we wrap it up?

Mike:

No i mean normally we move on here to the kind of like a future outlook and just personal opinion but i'll say two things one i'll go on a little bit of a tangent and then i'll give what i actually think is a personal future outlook little tension that i thought about is i think i may have mentioned just you before, but i've been asking myself for a few years because i'm very engaged with reddit and in ready you have a lot of problems with astro turf ing and you know, fake accounts of course there's a problem in all kinds of social media and also the main question that i had is as artificial intelligence and bots becomes more more effective and they're able to simulate human writing better and better how are forums like reddit going to not be total garbage because a i can outnumber a million users you know like once you have an a i that khun formulate text it could be ten million users in the snap of a finger and basically how would we be able to tell people apart online?

Karim:

I always asked myself that question in the future this is one of the first solutions that icy towards that that i'm like oh man that's really interesting because you could have ah anonymous social media service where you could validate that you're a real person using some kind of riel issuer and still not give anything away about yourself and then continue to have anonymous comment zero knowledge proof exists that you are exactly participating in ontology that you exist that you're a human that you're a person but that nothing else so i think that that's a little fantastic use case that could happen that might save internet forums from artificial intelligence dominance but onto the personal future outlook about ontology i don't know what's going to happen but this is my opinion part of the reason i invested in neo is because there seems to be a lot of evidence that it has chinese backing i don't want to say chinese government backing but chinese societal backing and ontology and on shane and all of their partnerships with major chinese institutions basically continue to validate that this is an extremely rapidly growing economy that is very centralized and these guys seem to have a foothold in the central orbits of power not only that they seem to have excellent technology and a clear vision for adoption and growing their network so my personal future outlook here is i think these guys were really going to grow quickly especially with in china it's hard to determine how much is going to spill out and i think that it is already global and the more efficient they become the more that they're going to become adopted in other places but i'll be honest with you i just don't see these guys not taking over a huge market share in china and it just seems like a real project a real deal and i expect ontology to become very widely adopted at least in that economy that's my opinion well britain i formed our opinion off of your opinion so i will say that i am very thankful the amount of work that you put into this and this episode came out about as well as i hoped i knew there was a lot of feedback from the community that this was something that people are very interested in and even if just in the sense that people received free tokens and they might wantto see exactly what they're worth or if there's you know any future involved so this was a really fascinating conversation brian is there anything you want to add that you'd like to see or any opinion we have hit our all time high for episode length always this are all time high i thought cardano i don't think we've had an hour and forty minutes for so you weren't you weren't on cardano i'm pretty sure cardano came very close but you might be right about this yeah cardano let me fact hey you guys keep talking all logo factcheck yeah you go factor i guess i'll take advantage of the fact that brent is time checking if you're interested in this project and some mohr applications or abstract concepts ah one of our moderators crypto geronimo has his own podcast scripted general or geronimo's musings and he's also covering this project is going to take a different approach look a different use cases i recommend checking it out ah he's very knowledgeable everytime he participates in our discord he's providing a ton of value so the episode as he's quite literally he's quite literally the top boss of our discord shot he's the highest oh no question no question he's a he is the boss so like if you defeat everybody he's the last one before you get to brent so anyway that's a crypto geronimo's musings he's going to have an episode on ontology and i recommend checking that that's supposed to be a little more detail based right it's yeah and i think he's going to explore different ah like use cases and applications like this is more of an overview i think that he's going to be able to dive in a little deeper and also take a little some more attention so it will be a very interesting compliment cardano came in at one hour and twelve minutes so we destroyed it new records after editing i mean i think i think the actual recording oh i i don't know how long the actual recording was but we're we're not losing that money man takes the matter you i'll tell you what i don't think we're helping our case here by discussing episode length so why don't we wrap this up?

Mike:

It sounds good we like to thank everybody for listening we like to remind you to check us out on twitter discord itunes gives the rating we appreciate it we're chugging along having a great time learning about the script of projects with you and trying to do it and unbiased and fair manner for the crypt of basic podcast that's going to wrap it up my name is mike i was here with brenton karim thanks again for tuning in in case we didn't say it we are not financial advisors.

Karim:

We are idiots.

Mike:

Don't listen to us.

Karim:

This is entertainment and good afternoon, good evening and good night.

Mike:

Aion

The members of the CryptoBasic podcast are not financial advisors, and this information is provided for entertainment purposes. Please do your own research, and don't listen to these idiots.

The CryptoBasic Podcast is owned and operated by Cipher Consulting Group LLC.