CryptoBasic Podcast

Your source for all Cryptocurrency information, made for the novice investor. 

Hey,

Karim:

everybody, this is kareem and thank you so much for tuning in i just wanted to take a second before the episode two i apologize for the audio quality on my specific track here for the interview it turns out that we were using new software for the interview and ah accidentally recorded the audio with my webcam as opposed to my microphone so you'll notice that my audio is not particularly good, but luckily this episode is not about me and this is about robert and he sounds great, so ah, once again sorry about the audio quality of my track it won't happen in the future and we really hope you enjoy this interview because we have very similar kind of values we respect human beings we want to make the world better like we have a whole list of social good that we're trying to do well let's work together and that's kind of my motto is anyone that is aligned with his values wise, i want to work with all right hello, everybody and welcome to this edition of the crypto basic podcast my name is corinne baroque, and i'm very excited about today's guest, the cofounder of zen zcash former physicists mercenary mathematician you're gonna have to tell us about that, robert giggling on how you doing today hey karim, thank you so much for having me it's a pleasure awesome man, so we're pretty excited before, before i go on, my co host was super interested mercenary mathematician, tell us what what that's about well, it was kind of a joke because i actually did well, was a mathematician, and then i was doing, uh, actually, military intel work in overseas and, you know, we're joking around like robson mercenary, but not really on the dork who crunches data for a living.

Karim:

So that's, really where that came from.

Robert Viglione:

All right, so right off the bat, this is one of the questions we ask all our guests.

Karim:

It is pretty broad, but what was your ah ha moment in relation to cryptocurrency?

Robert Viglione:

What was the specific moment where you really think that your perspective toward this field change?

Karim:

Yeah, i think my perspective towards bighorn was always like, oh my god, this is so amazing!

Robert Viglione:

And so actually i was thinking about this someone asked me the other day where i first came across bitcoin and then it dawns on me there was ah slashdot article in two thousand ten that i think really started getting, you know, people in the tech community a little bit more interested in bitcoin it was the first i think it was the first like quasi mainstream at least in the in the nerd community of mentioning bytecoin so that's what first got me interested then i deep dived into it i read the white paper and it was just kind of blown away all right?

Karim:

So right from the very beginning that's awesome, yeah all right, so question we have free, right?

Robert Viglione:

So seeing is still privacy is sold an important concept fours and cash and really all of design projects privacy seems to be fundamental and seeing as the privacy sometimes gets such a bad reputation in the space and associated with various activities can you maybe give our audience a few examples of benign and legitimate use cases for privacy that they may not have considered?

Karim:

No, of course and this is something that, you know, i think about all the time obviously because way like to think that we're doing this for for riel social good so then we're always challenged and there's always people who will take kind of i view those almost aion extreme position of well of course located drug cartel could use use end to move funds you know between each other yes of course there's always going to be some potentially nefarious use of technology but there's a whole bunch of social good so for instance just even think about the idea like the very basic thing of storing your your savings on you know cryptocurrency address do you want the world to see where you're safe personal help how much you have on dh where they should go to attack it and steal it right so i mean the type of technology we have i think the most basic use for zero knowledge cryptography is your your savings maybe should put your life savings is but you know what?

Robert Viglione:

Whatever you choose to put into the system you want to be private right why would you want to just kind of dangling out there for the world and for every hacker in the world to see exactly what you have and you know what they where they need to go to get it on and then if anyone ever associates this these funds to you in particular could you imagine the way already see this type of you know horrible be if you're in the industry where some people are actually abducted and you know at that weapon point forced to hand over their crypto teo to a thief so i mean really the most basic use case is protecting us from criminals.

Karim:

Yeah, and i think it's fair to say, robert, that a lot of people underestimate the dangers that especially if you spend most of your life in the west in the united states, or maybe like a nordic countries that are pretty safe.

Robert Viglione:

But as somebody who grew up in colombia during the nineties, you know, during the era of escobar's, stuff like that, people do get kidnapped and their families harassed because of money.

Karim:

So that's an accident.

Robert Viglione:

Okay, so while we did our one on one, we only found one real negative mark with the project.

Karim:

And i wanted to give you an opportunity to respond on an important aspect of your voting system, which we assumed was really just part of a boot.

Robert Viglione:

Strapping face is the fact that the court development team has a veto power over proposals, something that shouldn't be used but that they could use.

Karim:

So considering how important decentralization is to then cash, could you explain the reasons that the these clauses were inserted into the system and how or when you see them going away?

Robert Viglione:

Well, that's an easy one, i can tell you they're already gone esso extra yeah, no, i completely agree with you and so what we put into the white paper is actually not the system that we're delivering in code because we didn't even realize that we would have this amazing r and d partnership opportunity with aion it was k at the time that we wrote that so really what we did initially was kind of our first cut of what we thought might be like a first generation and then we always knew we had to improve it it's just the mentality was let's just start simple and let's see how it works on then we retain this kind of you know vito thing in case like say it didn't work and if you already put this in your code you know you're kind of screwed if it doesn't work but of course you know you would go through rigorous testing and you wouldn't do that but you know you never really know how a system will perform it could perform well technically but the social results might be different from what you expect eso for instance one thing that we always think about is well, we have seven divisions in this organization we have ah very robust engineering division we have you know, business development marketing operations are indeed you know, finance so forth and then what happens if we go one hundred percent liquid democracy and people just want to fund like mm fight sponsorships and you know, the development stuff doesn't get funded right, so i have some belief that there's wisdom in the crowd and you want this system to be massive or, you know, is maximally open to people to conduct control it democratically.

Karim:

But what we were thinking was just safeguards and initial safeguards because we weren't sure, but the result of what actually happened was we get this great partnership with iowa's k, and they had already been doing a year's worth of game theory research into voting, voting that mechanism design, and we have a very elegant liquid democracy solution that we already have in prototype, this being stress tested and in that system, there's no vetoing at all, so in that system is one hundred percent democratic, okay, so that's actually a perfect possible transition?

Robert Viglione:

I don't really know if this question is going to be as relevant then, but in the original white paper, one of the really interesting things that you guys had was how three hundred and sixty eight of the fourteen hundred forty votes we're essentially in a system where you could buy them at an incriminating rate.

Karim:

So obviously, on the surface, the idea of buying and selling boats doesn't seem like very democratic, but we were sure that there were some interesting game theory concepts that went into that decision making i was one of you could go into that, yes so that's exactly right no, i'll take a step back and say the best or maybe optimal, you know voting system would probably be something where you're the weight of your vote is proportionate to somehow your contribution to the system and contributions to the system was what really got us the hamster wheel in the brain working was how do you measure someone's contribution to the system?

Robert Viglione:

Because it's not just what did they invest because then you just have rich people that dominated right it's well, maybe we have a designer who was amazing and he has some great contribution to the system maybe we have ah developer who has great contribution to the system, right?

Karim:

And we're trying to just think what could be the first order approximation of, like rewarding or giving people us await this proportional in some way to khun contribution and we didn't want just monetary contribution initially, and i'll say that because theoretically i think there's a lot more than people contribute teo economies thin, just the money output that you see right there's there's so much more so it's really challenging for us to try to design a system where we could you do like a first approximation of this and it was never meant to be perfect. There was always meant to say this is a first step forward, and the whole concept of voting you are kind of buying votes was and it was only for a portion of the voting power because there's probably some truth to people willing to invest resources into the system and you have to incentivize them to invest those resource is right and the system does benefit from having resource is invested in it it's just we didn't want to give them all of the benefit all right so it was kind of carved out that there would be kind of ah little segment there was yeah sure you invest more money and you'll have more of a say in the system because you would have people potentially that were you know successful entrepreneurs to have some capital and this is kind of like our game theory version of how do we get like a successful venture capitalists who want to come in in kind of add value indifferently i will say, we were really impressed with the general structure.

Robert Viglione:

How you guys were trying to design that voting system. It was very reminiscent, almost of an electoral system where you were trying ensure that the different parts of the network had representation in some way, you know, from that slum to consumers. Okay, actually, good.

Karim:

Do you mind? Do you mind if i just expand on that for a second?

Robert Viglione:

No, please, no, it is what you want. So have you all.

Karim:

Fired up when it comes to, like, liquid democracies and voting in economics, you know, so i what? What? You're going to see what's being delivered from iowa k is ah, voting system, that is, steak waited. So this kind of, you know, our initial cut was we have to figure out how to reward different stakeholders, and then we end up with a system that's one hundred percent stake waited, right? So kind of what happened. And this was because way realized it's really hard to code and all of these different kind of stakeholder waiting's, it's really hard, because at some point, you're using subjectivity instead of science. So the first system that we have with iris que is science based, and it does have this, you know, one hundred percent pure liquid democracy based purely on voting stake, where the voters get paid to vote, which i think is really cool because you could actually earn income, like, earn a living by just kind of being a good citizen and like going out and reviewing proposals and voting, you know? So i think that's really cool. But, you know, i am a little bit skeptical that we have a one hundred percent stake waited system, you know, where truly?

Robert Viglione:

Like you could be, you know, like, for instance, i have probably more zen cash than like a lot of people in the system.

Karim:

Do i deserve more to say, then you know, someone else who comes into the system that doesn't the's a really big philosophical questions way don't have the answer. So i guess what i'm doing is in some way apologizing, but i want to put a mental bookmark in people's minds and say, like, we know we have to improve, but this is the first separation, i think it's pretty amazing and pretty exciting, though despite that no, absolutely, and i think that one of the things that's worth saying is that when we're talking about blocking systems it's, dimmer, jubal our fields.

Robert Viglione:

So when it comes to certain things, it's really about the science, the engineering but when you're talking about something like governance, we're talking about the way humans interact that that's a much more we don't have the computers that i figured that out toe one zero's yeah, thank you, thank you, no, i totally agree with you.

Karim:

Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Viglione:

Okay, so you guys have very strong priorities when it comes to security and encryption, and you guys have established pretty unique requirements for becoming a secure note. But in spite of this right now, zen cash is one of the largest note counts in this space, so we wanted to ask you, number one, how do you explain zen caches, success and acquiring you, notes that rival networks like ethereum of bitcoin, and also tell the audience how you plan on leveraging that resource.

Karim:

Now that that's a phenomenal question. Actually, this is, i think, one of the kind of most underrated aspects of our system. But it is huge in the long run. So way got lucky with our first guests at the economics of kind of being right, in some sense, where we realize that again, going.

Robert Viglione:

Back to stakeholders and rewarding stakeholders.

Karim:

So toshi did an amazing job with rewarding miners and getting the incentive for minors to behave properly. He did that perfectly with the mining rewards. But what we quickly learned in the ecosystem since then was there's a whole bunch of other stakeholders, and you have to compensate them. You can't just constantly reward on people doing things for free indefinitely, because that's, not sustainable, people can always chime in and contribute in some haphazard way. But if they can't pay their bills by doing so, you're not going to bring in a professional force. So one of the first things we did was okay, well, we want to build a large network because we have a whole bunch of, like, you know, ten, ten year.

Robert Viglione:

Horizon twenty year horizon aion additions for the system that we want to build out now eh so well the way to do that economically is you have to incentivize them so what we did was we split the block reward initially just three and a half percent of the block reward went to people who set up the secure nodes they had these you know l you know higher machine requirements for computation in up time in like a val attila certificate so basically we generated we create a system where we had higher quality machines adding nodes tor network then say like bitcoin or any other you know cryptocurrency out there and we wanted that because we want to have a lot of high quality notes so you pay them and you'll every requirements on the technical side we did that and we were actually a little surprised with the overwhelming success of three and a half percent of the block reward generating almost ten thousand notes was kind of crazy but that was just the first step it was the teaser the next thing which we just announced last week was we're upping the secure notary worked ten percent and we're creating this whole new class of you know of notes called super nodes that have you know much higher technical requirements five hundreds and stake on then they have their own dedicated funding pool of ten per cent of la chords so it in aggregate we have we went from three and a half percent of blockers going to note operators now twenty percent and this is where we're really turbo charging the network and why are we doing this is because we're flipping us around to be a platform and we're moving this was kind of our elegant transition from our first product which was a cryptocurrency to now we're building this very large system this a platform that people cannot build stuff on top of and we have exactly the machines that people would be building things on top of so a lot of other systems out there you know that might do in a ceo and raising funds to go build say distributed file storage system if they need their raising my first the building system then they need to think well now we need machines to run this software well we already have the machines to run a whole bunch of soft where in the way that i see this unfolding the future is where we would have a sort of ala carte menu for note operators where it's we have all of these df developers that can build different things and then the note operator can choose well hey i want to run the steem and i'll make money by running steem so not only will know dockworkers be earning income in the future with block rewards but what we envisioned is a very vibrant ecosystem where there's all these other applications that ad really utility that no doctors get to choose which ones that want to run and they could do it in a way this responsive to the market where those that have the highest user demand we'll have the highest fees generated so they can choose to do use those but then there's this equilibrium mechanism in the long run where will they'll still be neech products with user demand for them so you know the way we should see a very interesting evolution here i think and that was really the whole purpose of it is we have this kind of long vision of an evolutionary system and i think it starts though with playing the infrastructure i think i think it's fantastic and want to congratulate you guys on having a well thought out process.

Karim:

And i definitely like the idea.

Robert Viglione:

If you believe that the value of character really comes from the power of networks. It's. Cool that you guys are focusing on the network first, and then all the added utility that you can create on top of the network. Later. I want to follow up on something that you touched on. You mentioned the fact that you're sick. Your nose required a teel a certificate. And, as you know, a lot of people feel that that's redundant because you're using ck snarks. So i want to give you an opportunity to explain why you guys decided to do that, and how you envision is becoming more and more relevant, right?

Karim:

Now so this is that right and when we get this criticism that okay what's the point right you know the point is well any additional security i think is a good thing for users so yeah we're adding some marginal security to the system does the marginal security you know equate to the benefit right now i don't know but we have a longer term horizon vision here but some things like domain fronting where the whole point of it is to create a system where users is there maybe in parts of the world that are kind of left out are able to access our system without the world known what they're accessing eso even something like that where we want to just create tunnels where people can access our network without anyone even knowing that they're doing so so you know just creating that kind of like point to point encryption is critical just even for that one application but we do envision a whole set of other applications running on our network in the future so z k snarks worked really well for transactions and you know but if we build some some other application that's not running stark's because maybe snarks are you know it is not part of that architecture maybe it's too heavy of a computational burden for a particular d up well, we still have the tea lass on there for the you know, the point point encryption so is more of a long term strategy and vision than it was like adding marginal utility to just the transaction so if people just look at it in like in my out myopic lens of what's the point of that yeah, sure you're probably right but we still do preserve meta data for users you know, on points of connection, you know, and any other potential data leakage that let be going across the network which i think is still added value but it's really the big utility cases or in the future for the other things that were building top yeah, i think especially with the domain fronting that you mentioned there in our one o one we were really impressed just because it shows a an all encompassing vision off privacy understanding that you could have a private currency or a private transaction but if the entrance or the exit aren't private than it's irrelevant and i think that it's a pretty astute development on you guys this part something else on your white people that we found extremely interesting, very unique that i want you to explain a little bit or expand on is this idea of allowing and even encouraging competing douse can you explain how that came about and how your vision of playing out yeah it's it's my ambition to maybe one day be out of a job because the system is so successful that's that's really, the vision is, you know, we don't want even us is the initial team to be income, vince, that you can't get rid off.

Robert Viglione:

Now, of course, we have an advantage because we know the system and set out we have the community that trust us and so forth.

Karim:

We have a track record, but we always want to create the system so that anyone can participate and compete, and we could never be so complacent where we're not competing anymore ourselves.

Robert Viglione:

S so that's, really, yet and really what?

Karim:

When it means like competing dallas it's truly, we have one resource pool, but that resource pool could be divided, theoretically, an infinite number of ways, and it doesn't have to just be one team gets the whole resource pole. What what i envision in the near future once the dow goes live, is i want our team to basically bid ourselves as one project proposal, right? And we have no other, you know, theoretical advantage or at least from a systems perspective, no other advantage than any other team. You could have that other than the trust.

Robert Viglione:

Yeah, exactly.

Karim:

But i really hope that we have much better. You know, teams develop in the future like i want the most, you know, bad ass team in the world to say, hey, sense an open system, let's compete, and i want them to come out and people say, oh my god, these people are incredible. Let's, let's, switch up management. I think that would be great, right?

Robert Viglione:

That means you want and that means you exactly created you exactly.

Karim:

Then we go off and build something else exactly like we don't have. We're not building the system to just entrench ourselves forever, no it's, a it's, a very, very cool vision.

Robert Viglione:

All right, so i'm going to ask you, you know, that there has been a lot of excitement in the community about your research partnership with iowa h k, can you talk about it? Give us a little bit of insight into it and specifically tell us what the value at it is that i always kate gives to the sand zcash network.

Karim:

Yeah. Real simple well two things one is aligned values where you know charles vision for iowa k is very much in line with our vision for where we want this into shoot to go he's a values based person and i think his values are pretty awesome the second is they have incredible team of researchers and developers it's ridiculous i think they're probably about about one hundred people the last i checked of very senior phd level researchers in different kind of clusters around the world and that's impressive and we want to tap into that and we were very fortunate early on to have charles joined our team is an advisor and it was through that advisory relationship where we got to know him in iowa skate better and realized wow this is incredible we have so many synergies with what we're doing these iowa's k was already doing treasury research for voting systems andi were doing it much more rigorously than we were to be honest like you we just had some basic ideas of you know the voting system that we told you like okay here's some initial mechanism design we put some thought into it but these guys actually had teams of researchers doing this stuff for a year before us and they already had some code you know so okay this is cool we can work with these guys and their vision was great because they want to develop the technology that will kind of liberate this industry and make it more efficient and they want to basically push that technology out into the world and we're consumer of that technology in some sense eh so that worked out really well then there's a whole bunch of other stuff with research synergies you know we we knew all along that we have to scale using this based technology that we did from you know the zcash zcash code base was really just the first step in to grab live snark but we wanted to experiment with different protocols in the future and one of them that we just happened teo you know have synergy with with aion kay was this block to egg protocol this is something that i can say they proposed us and i was blown away because i knew we had to do some skilling research but i wasn't even thinking down this domain of thes really innovative papers that were being written in academia where it was really jump leapfrogging like iota type technology with these transaction dags and jags were becoming really popular than we heard wow this is actually much more elegant way to do a dag that's you know academically rigorous you know there's actually math proofs behind these things working me and now we can bring this in tow software in a way where we're not completely destroying our gutting our network we're actually leveraging our network so for instance the block dag protocol that we're looking at is called phantom and it is a it's a proof of work optimized dag so we're still packaging transactions than two blocks and we're still having miners run proof of work to win the mining race but we're not wasting hash power because anyone who solves a valid block that block it's added it doesn't have to be just one block gets added in a chain is we have a tree structure now or any any minor that has a valid block that they win it gets added so now with the dogs we don't even have to waste proof of work you know like with bitcoin for instance every miner that loses that was just a wasted you know round a proof of work right so now we can lovers or harness the security aspects of the entire minor network so things like this were just uh really good targets of opportunity for us that i wish it was already looking at these types of technologies and frost they made complete sense so it was great and we have a broader visions well of building out our own we haven't rnd you know division within our organization where you know i owes k is one part of that i would that are indeed division but it's a huge part because these guys have already have a huge head start on building out there their academic network yeah, that's, awesome.

Robert Viglione:

And you? You crushed my question that i was gonna ask you guys about that so very quick follow upon that. I've noticed that with very few exceptions in this space, a lot of times when we're talking about scale ability, the only focuses transactions per second. So maybe just take a little bit of time to explain why throughput is not the only measure for scalability.

Karim:

Yeah. I mean just think about the data as it all comes the data structure itself and the more transactions you have the more successful you become the larger the data structure that you're accumulating over time you know for instance like the more transactions you're forcing every single note in the world to keep track of so at some point we know we're not gonna have infinite storage capacity you know and especially there's always this trade off the higher the storage requirement for your chain the fewer people will be able to run that that note or you know keep thesis ledgers you know on file that's just the nature of it so if you want to be on every single machine in the world you probably have to have a very small footprint to do that so that's kind of our goal in the long run actually is not just to have these monolithic you know, chains that were tracking everything really the second part of scaling besides throughput is the storage amount you know, the storage you know requirement for your chain and that's another very fascinating part of research that i can say for us is a placeholder to be honest we're still fairly small so we figured this there's two parts of scaling this transaction throughput we'll tackle that first and then there's the storage requirement will tackle that next probably in r and d project next year but then you could think about just you know theoretically i guess the basics of it is how can you how can you efficiently trim the chain or basically discard information without losing important information right so you still have to retain every little bit of important information but there's probably an accumulation of unimportant information on the chain said you know that you could potentially you know push off to maybe some specialized nodes like hint our secure notes might be the perfect repositories for full chains in the future and we have much lighter no types that now it could be embedded on say your home router are some other some other device because we ultimately want millions of notes it's not just about having even i think we'll have about twenty five thousand no it's probably within three to six months or more notes yeah yeah but we ultimately want millions of notes so that's that's kind of what's going on in the background in our minds is how do we figure out these rial scaling problems and we're not even there is an industry were not even considering yet no, but that's, but that is really exciting stuff.

Robert Viglione:

I mean, listening to you talk about that makes me think about it, victor, where blocking is really being used as a field, where we're further in human studies, like you're really talking about just actual storage of data right there, which is the lifeblood of our society right now. So this is a very interesting stuff. All right, you know, i got a few more questions. A couple of the last ones are more broad and open ended, but i'm throwing this question in here specifically for you. I think this is going to be your favorite question. Can you tell our audience a little bit about blue frontiers, your partnership with them, and how you actually envision collaboration between san zcash loopring tears?

Karim:

Oh, man, you know me pretty well already. Then i guess that is my favorite question.

Robert Viglione:

S oh.

Karim:

So blue frontiers actually years ago i came across sea standing see setting dot org's i recommend everyone check it out and i was i was really blown away with the vision that these guys had of there's so many social and ecological economic problems in the world and rather thinking just complaining about them they figured let's just build something where we can try to self some problems you know from the ground up s o basically the premise was let's start building offshore start up societies and i thought this was amazing what a great what a great idea because they could be modular they could be you know you're flexible too in the sense where maybe you have one offshore community that you loved when you first got there but maybe the politics of a change so rather than try toe you know force people to i agree with you in politics we just moved to the other one where people do agree with you right so these things were sort of modular and i thought this is great because there's so many people around the world just trapped and bad political jurisdictions where you know economists say this kind of goes against all of the the anti immigrant like b s out there of you know trying tio you keep you are saying that our society has become poorer by immigrants that's b s we become much wealthier or richer with immigrate immigrants coming into our our society's so you know, economists, i actually have some estimates where, if we could just say transcribed all of humanity into say, like the best legal jurisdiction that we have, and i don't know what it is maybe it's say maybe, you know, and i'm just using example, states the us, canada or some other country that has, like, a really good, well functioning legal jurisdiction if you just placed most of humanity into that legal jurisdiction, world's gdp would double or triple overnight, you know, it's not that people aren't ambitious it's not that they're not smart it's not that they don't want to work hard and secure their families is they're just trapped and bad parts of the world, so what i loved was ok, we're not going to change politics all over the world, but what we can do is create like an escape where i would love to have one of these sea stead cities offshore, you know, have say some, you know, caracas or some other society that's really struggling and just open the doors say, like anyone you're you're welcome here we want it's like the old motto for the statue of liberty, right?

Robert Viglione:

Give us your your, uh, was that your time we report, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that that's, the motto is.

Karim:

We want people to emigrate.

Robert Viglione:

We want to liberate people.

Karim:

So that was that was the background for see steady that's, the mission for it, and there's, also an environmental mandate, where they're trying to kind of reclaim, you know, aquatic environments that have been polluted, which i think is really interesting as well. So there's, there's a lot of utopian good that these people are trying to dio number one, i just support them no matter what i think that's lost in what they're doing but never to help help, and that's, where i joined them as an advisor on their commercial offshoot, which is called blue frontiers, which he brought up.

Robert Viglione:

And this is the actual corporation, that now it is going to be building the first sea stead, and we're doing it in tahiti and a beautiful lagoon and tahiti, so it'll be protected from the the open ocean and it's really like a minimum viable product and m v p product where we will we'll build it.

Karim:

Maybe it'll house say, forty, fifty people, and we'll measure say that the aquatic environment ain't you before and after to make sure we're actually net positive contributors to the environment and not net negative, you know, harm er's of the environment so that's, where my involvement with blue frontiers came, but then we realized, well, ok, they're actually now going to the boxing domain, and maybe we can help out in cash because we have very similar kind of values. We respect human beings, we want to make the world better, like we have a whole list of social good that we're trying to do well let's work together and that's kind of my motto is anyone that is aligned with his values wise, i want to work with them, and we'll figure out how to make it work with blue frontiers there, doing in eiko to raise capital.

Robert Viglione:

So the first thing way could do is okay.

Karim:

Well, we can. Structure is so people could invest sent into there. There, i said, we're not necessarily endorsing the ceo itself, a cz an investment. But we're saying, well, we're will help you set up wallets and such and facilitate exchange.

Robert Viglione:

Yeah, exactly, which, as a currency, right, the currency ugo, right, exactly.

Karim:

So it just makes total sense, and then the other thing is because they're looking into an offshore societies will you have to figure out governments for these things, right?

Robert Viglione:

You have a collection of human beings, and they have to figure out how to peacefully coexist with each other and make decisions collectively while we're building your governance system.

Karim:

So what i would love to do is well, we're going to be exploring first, how we can actually use our governance system. Tio make decisions on sea stats. So i think that's maybe the most fastening thing is this is another application. Potentially of our future platform is governance is a service or voting systems is a service. And the real vision for me is i would love for governments around the world to say, well, hey, this works really well for a blockchain system. It works really well for a whole bunch of startup societies on ceased eds. Maybe we can use their government. They're voting system, you know, toe awful their own elections and do this in a provably fair away but positive incentives for citizens to vote right? This is the real long term vision is we want to help the world in so many different ways for that what?

Robert Viglione:

An exciting what an exciting time to be alive and you know seriously awesome for there be people like you working on these problems i do want to echo some just expand a little bit further on what you said about los determining like if you could put the world's population a stable society i couldn't agree with you more there's been so much research done about how the main indicators for wealth tend to be the strength of institutions, the strength of legal systems and not so much like natural resource is right natural resource is in norway can provide a great standard of living where is that same natural resource in venezuela can be used as a tool of suppression because you don't need to apologize.

Karim:

So it's yes, very fascinating self and definite wanted to give you a chance to talk about that a little bit.

Robert Viglione:

All right, so this question is a little bit more bias and personal that our audience knows that i was the one that put this question in here. But there are unfortunately in our society today some negative stereotypes about academic research. Some people think it's too rigid or that it's too theoretical and there seems to be a lot of romanticism about the idea of the lone genius so maybe kinyua somebody with actual experience can you explain some of the benefits and unique value propositions of academic scientific research of course.

Karim:

Yeah, definitely. So i also have my gripes with it sometimes. But then i think there's a lot more good that comes. So what academic research gives us is you have some group of people that gets to just step back and think. And they think for a living. And i think that this adds a lot of vita society in different ways. And oftentimes the link to the research to the economic output of the social good that comes from it is hard to see, but sometimes it's very easy.

Robert Viglione:

So for instance, i mean in my field, you know, for my phd in finance, there's probably, you know, there's been trillions of dollars and value that's been created, actually, with some research say, like the black and black black scholes option pricing models.

Karim:

I mean, we know that there are insufficient now, but it's still kicked off a whole options industry in derivatives industry, which, you know, people can now step back and say, maybe it went too far, maybe there's way too many derivatives in the world, right?

Robert Viglione:

And i mean what would probably agree?

Karim:

With you right exactly but i still think that there's a whole bunch of misunderstanding that all of these things in most of them really are actually orders that are matched with other other counter orders right so it's not like when people go and try to scare you in the media and say hey theres you know how many hundreds of millions of dollars in derivatives this is insane the net amount though actually because they're actually so many offsetting ones really is not even a fraction of that so but this is one field in other fields where what i love to see is like mitt mithri a brag about creating something like over a trillion dollars in economic value just with start offs the startups that had been offshoots of the research they do there so mithri ink is just the prototypical example of their doing hard core a research across domains and converting that into startups that build real stuff and bring it to market now like i can tell you from our own project we're kind of a hybrid lean startup and are in the incubator and on the lean startup side is great and i think this is how most of the industry works is they basically built him engineering stuff and put it out to market and then kind of iterated on improve it hopefully and and it's good but it's not as much of ah deep long term thinking approach of like where should this technology dio how do we really get the next order of magnitude improvement in technology it's more of a marginal improvement you know mechanism you know kind of the rapid engineering prototyping bringing to market society absolutely needs it but i think what we need symbiotically is the deep like long term horizon one horizon r and d s o that's why we do both and i think doing both is the sweet spot i don't think so this this is where i think the criticisms fall short is they don't they don't consider this type of thing as like one sliver of a broader ecosystem of knowledge kind of furthering human knowledge right and if you consider his one sliver of a kind of a compliment our ecosystem then it has a huge huge value i think that's pretty obvious yeah, and i think you're a certain areas tend to get a lot of the glory.

Robert Viglione:

So when people look at something like the iphone, you know, you just think to yourself, oh, yeah, well, steve jobs is a genius and not the hundreds or thousands of hours that went into the development of research for transistors.

Karim:

Gps.

Robert Viglione:

Great, like all of the components, all the technology that makes it possible, right?

Karim:

Exactly.

Robert Viglione:

And all of the spurs, the failed in trying to do something similar.

Karim:

Absolutely.

Robert Viglione:

Yeah, and entrepreneurs are kind of crazy to be entrepreneurs.

Karim:

It's really, you know, and this is what a lot of academics don't understand. When they run, they do the math, and they kind of look at these kind of equations of, you know, economic input output or we're not. And they say we'll watch worship is crazy. The risk is too high. The payoff. The payoff structures to asymmetric there's only like a very few of them that make enormous amount of money and everyone else fails. So but the world needs, um, it's.

Robert Viglione:

Like trying to be a professional athlete, you know, where they make it to fifty million a year. But you have no idea how many people right at the end, were unable to make it, and their life was devastated because of it. Often, you know, exactly, uh, all right, so this is gonna be an easy phone question. This is one of the way had a portfolio contest at the beginning of our podcast, and we just like to ask this question. You got five coins, ten years, no traces, no nothing, just five coins, ten years. What do you pick?

Karim:

Oh, man, okay, that's, a really good one, uh, let me get zcash.

Robert Viglione:

I'm assuming might be on there, right?

Karim:

Hey, maybe, yeah, i probably recommends that, yeah, so is then should be one of them, you know, honestly.

Robert Viglione:

So and here's, the academic in me is i always tell people, well, number one, you should diversify, right number two this probably some not some wisdom in the current valuation structures, so i would start from the top dogecoin had a long track record, right?

Karim:

I think it's the most battle tested cryptocurrency, it should definitely be in our portfolio.

Robert Viglione:

You should also have a platform or two in your portfolio, like ethereum mithri in classic, you know, maybe cardano would be probably my top three of the smart contracting type platforms that are out there.

Karim:

I don't know which one i would choose, you know? I mean, there's there's pros and cons to all of them, right? And and then for sure you want so you would want some sort of privacy oriented one, so i mean zen since a great privacy one but i love other privacy projects as well. I've been a really big fan of monero for a really long time, it's a different technology, i think it has different use cases. S oh, i don't think that we necessarily overlap and everything yeah, i don't know and maybe they pick your favorite business on top of that, i'm sorry, i'm pretty bad, you know, you never ask a finance academic to give you a portfolio because we have no idea and i like the way you switched it out to the air for a business you're like.

Robert Viglione:

And then whoever's making the graphics cards for the miners.

Karim:

Yeah, all right, get that.

Robert Viglione:

So and maybe something that we haven't touched on or that a lot of people don't know about.

Karim:

Tell us something really exciting about stan cash, whether it's this year, next year, something that's coming down the line that you're particularly excited about.

Robert Viglione:

Mmm mmm it's hard because we have so much going on i can say maybe a a little bit of a teaser which i think is sometimes fun to do in these in these shows is we are considering you know, other kind of structural models for how we might do things.

Karim:

So for instance i could see a future where we might have safe for profit spinoff like ethereum does with consensus where you actually have a dedicated group this building kind of applications on top of the platform itself and they're doing it in a way this directly responsive to consumer demand because they want to make a profit and opening up the system too kind of you that this type of ap developments from external developers so that's that's something that it's not on the technology side it's more of like economic side you just kind of restructured the auriga little bits so we have our nonprofit organization that builds infrastructure i could see a role for for profit institutions are for profit company or hopefully many of these for profit companies that are building stuff on top of the platform i could see a future where we also kind of ah, you do really big projects say like an exchange i think would be an interesting one if we could pull something like that off, eh? So there's a lot to the ecosystem that goes beyond just sort technology roadmap that we're considering out there so maybe i'm a little irresponsible by even like brainstorming publicly about this hot.

Robert Viglione:

You know, we're just e think it's fantastic, because you're decentralized project and the level of engagement that you guys have is really, really exciting and the way your crowd sourcing it spent.

Karim:

Yeah, well, sometimes we just throw things out there and see with community, thanks, you know, like thistle side chaining thing that we did a couple weeks ago.

Robert Viglione:

I mean, the community seemed to love it, so it was really good, really good to hear, because sometimes we just put an idea out there and kind of measure the feedback and it's all overwhelmingly positive.

Karim:

So it was great, awesome and had been for the last one.

Robert Viglione:

I just want to give you the floor, you know, thank you so much for coming here. Any message or anything that you want to say to the audience, you have free reign, i appreciate.

Karim:

That you know what? I was closed off with his pleased if you like anything that you've heard here today come come check out the community come to our website we have most of our action taking place in discord but we also have telegram a telegram group we have reddit thread we have bytecoin talk thread all the usual suspects come join us participate and was was even better is a few ideas on how to improve the system that's where we really love to hear from you you consume it puzzles to us directly on our forum and actually get paid to do stuff and that we have a budget and we have to spend it in the more we can spend it on the community doing stuff the better. So please just come in and you bring your ideas and try to participate that's awesome once again rob, i really want to thank you not just for coming on the show.

Robert Viglione:

Obviously we're very grateful for that, but more importantly on behalf of a lot of people you are into cryptocurrency but we are more on the sidelines or observing we want to thank you for being one of the projects that's implementing world changing vision that's implementing values that matter and we really hope people like you become the leaders of this space because that's exactly what we want if all thank you so much cream.

Karim:

Yeah, this is great. I love the questions. I think this was a very well structured, you know, you really got to the heart of what we're doing, so appreciate that.

Robert Viglione:

Well, thank you so much, robin. You know, they will have your game, the future for some extra updates.

Karim:

There'll be awesome. Pleased it.

Robert Viglione:

Fantastic

The members of the CryptoBasic podcast are not financial advisors, and this information is provided for entertainment purposes. Please do your own research, and don't listen to these idiots.

The CryptoBasic Podcast is owned and operated by Cipher Consulting Group LLC.